DanG 1 #26 May 11, 2011 QuoteOK, so the company paid an amazing %20 more than the market rate. OK that's cool. I can see why you're getting out of engineering. I said $20k, not 20%. It was significantly more than 20%. QuoteNow I don't want to offend you but you do know that a company any company can just about move 100% of its engineering off shore to SEA and save all that R&D money? I'm not offended, because, once again, you're dead wrong. My company works with technology that it is illegal to export without a license. Military and very high tech work has to be done in the US. And if you think the quality of work you're going to get out of SEA is the same as what you get domestically, I feel sorry for whatever company you end up managing. QuoteNothing new has been invented in well over 50 years. Things have gotten faster smaller and more efficient. With that attitude, nothing new will ever get invented. QuoteI'm sorry....the investment is just not worth the return. For you, maybe not, but your experience is far from a universal truth. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #27 May 11, 2011 Quote Quote www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1 Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering. So, getting back to the OP......Yes, that did bug me, especially in HS. I was taking all the math & science classes (not required by the last 2 years), plus my required humanities, so my day was full. By best friend was only on half days our senior year because she had fulfilled all the other actual requirements. In college, everyone had to take at least one class in 8 required subjects (all at the 100-level, although there was a list of the bare minimum classes). Essentially, everyone had to get out of their own department the same as everyone else. It was probably easier for me to read Shakespeare than for the literature majors having to take Biology for the first time since their early years of HS. Yes, back on topic please... There would be lots of benefits for "social studies" students if their curriculum included some science / math classes. Some of the successful peers I have that come from that side to the campus often are the ones with a more rounded approach to things, or who can do some basic dB programming for example. Heck, a good friend of mine if a very successful sales development manager at one of the big pharmas, and she has a history degree, but is one smart cookie (and before Shah goes on about how she must be a tall hot blonde who flirts her way to the sales, looks wise, she's fairly average looking).Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #28 May 11, 2011 I don’t have kids but many nephews and nieces. I strongly stress to all of them, no matter what you study, it’s a must to take basic accounting and a marketing class. I have worked in finance most of my adult life. People who do not understand the basics of a balance sheet find life much more difficult than those that do. I see kids who spend a fortune on a fancy east coast education but don’t understand how to set up a simple budget or why a cup of coffee cost more in different towns. They see their finances as a matter of fair or unfair. Math is neutral. It is cold and has no emotion. Having a basic understanding of how accounting works makes your personal life easier. It makes your understanding of how the world works more clear. You stop seeing things as fair or unfair and seeing them for what they are, neutral. To me its similar to a basic philosophy class, its makes you think more clearly and be more at peace with the world."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #29 May 11, 2011 As a sociology major with a successful 25+ year career in computers, I'd have to agree on the value of a well-rounded education . And yes, I took math, physics, biology, and chemistry for varying periods in college (but at least a semester). But the understanding I got in how people work was also extremely valuable in my career. While I was there, my university had what they called distribution requirements -- everyone had to take at least 4 humanities classes, 4 math/science classes, and 4 arts/letters classes. Of course we had the easy ones available (rocks for jocks, twinkle-twinkle, computer art, etc), but with that many needed, you generally had to take some real classes as well. Everyone also had to either take or test out of English 101, Composition. Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #30 May 11, 2011 Quote Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering. I agree, every degree should require some math and science. I think it varies somewhat by university. I went to Northwestern and I feel I got a very well-rounded education. The worst class I had to take was an English Lit class that was mostly on poetry. - I thought I would never make it through the semester. My classes were mostly science but I knew some english majors who still had to take a certain amount of math and science (and they weren't happy about it). However, I do know people who went to other schools who took no science and maybe one math class. I also think a computer programming class should be a requirement, I wish I had taken a programming class because it would be useful to me now. I am glad I took a lot of writing classes (mostly as electives) since I have a dissertation to write.Off topic-- Why does every thread turn into Shah talking about how smart women are overweight and ugly and don't take care of themselves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #31 May 11, 2011 Quote Off topic-- Why does every thread turn into Shah talking about how smart women are overweight and ugly and don't take care of themselves? wow don't put words in my mouth. I just said and it's a well known fact that on average you have 1 girl per 10 guys in the sciences. As such dating with in your class is not fun at all. And supply and demand make is such that said 1 girl can do what ever she wants and still get a date. Thus I dated outside of my field. But still, would have been nice not to. Should the "artsy" types be forced to take math classes and science classes? Sure why not. Maybe some of the people who are in the sciences and who think that they are gods gift to man would maybe understand that there is more to the world. And I'm sure your average engineering student woudln't mind meeting girls who would take them out and show them how to dress. Look the world may have changed, we may have more technology in our hands than ever before but the worlds view of the sciences has not improved past http://www.dreamincode.net/forums/uploads/post-106641-1253660242.jpg and for the record, engineering is engineering, and unless it is sensative there is no reason why a manager can't move an entire engineering office to India, pay those guys 1/5th what he would pay the engineer in the US andget the same product. It's sad but it's business.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #32 May 11, 2011 back before they gutted it, one of the best things about the Air Force Academy education was "THE CORE" (say that with an ominous, heavy tone, maybe a "duh du duhhhh" after it).Oh, we hated it when we were there, but looking back, it was the best thing I got out of that place. Every person had the same core requirements. One basic class from every department/sub field (including all the different "engineerings") On the flip side, I, as an aero major, still had to take philosophy, law, management, etc. bleh. But you know, all of those classes provided knowledge that I used in my job, and some of the fuzzy ones i used more than the engineering ones! I totally agree that everyone should have a well-rounded core education. it's too bad it's all limited by finances. Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #33 May 11, 2011 QuoteQuote Off topic-- Why does every thread turn into Shah talking about how smart women are overweight and ugly and don't take care of themselves?Quote wow don't put words in my mouth. How is it putting words in your mouth? You've repeatedly posted your description of the "typical engineering women" in the forums. I'm just saying I know many women in science and engineering and none of them meet your description. That may well have been your experience at your school but that doesn't mean it generalizes.Quote it's a well known fact that on average you have 1 girl per 10 guys in the sciences That's not a well known fact and was not my experience at all. Most of my science classes were pretty equally split between men and women, some even had more women than men. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shah269 0 #34 May 11, 2011 Yeah, I'm just thinking of Engineers taking modern dance. http://www-scf.usc.edu/~egsa/images/DWTE.JPG On your left...the dudes! http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/135212200_750a88f9a2.jpg On your right .... the chicks! http://api.ning.com/files/GwWx2ElJH4dtaAcdfca4lW-3QyY5Sl1omdKwt*xh66hhUY-xR*OemOd6x7*kT*hYSItLk1fxIn4P88c-Qf0So3uEvG1oIj0Q/umow.jpg Ok boys....girls....and we are now going to learn how to dance...hold hands! Oh wait there are 6 dudes per every girl....ok hum...well....ok some of you guys will have to hold hands. Oh I'm just now being very mean. But yeah sure why not! Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shah269 0 #35 May 11, 2011 Quote That's not a well known fact and was not my experience at all. Most of my science classes were pretty equally split between men and women, some even had more women than men. http://www.swe.org/swe/regiond/sections/sefl/Templates/StatisticsonWomeninEngineering%5B1%5D.pdf Ok I was off 1 girl per 6 dudes. Still sounds like a buyers market to me. But I coudl be wrong, we need to start a thread called "Post the picture of the hot engineering chick" By we I fully mean you Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #36 May 11, 2011 QuoteWhy should any company pay any engineer or scientist more than what the feds pay? You pay your people the "going market rate". In the sciences...that is set by the DOD the largest employer of scientists and engineers in the US? I know this can't be true, since you've posted repeatedly that you make over 100,000 and how that is so little money in New Jersey."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #37 May 11, 2011 Quote Quote That's not a well known fact and was not my experience at all. Most of my science classes were pretty equally split between men and women, some even had more women than men. http://www.swe.org/swe/regiond/sections/sefl/Templates/StatisticsonWomeninEngineering%5B1%5D.pdf Ok I was off 1 girl per 6 dudes. Still sounds like a buyers market to me. But I coudl be wrong, we need to start a thread called "Post the picture of the hot engineering chick" By we I fully mean you have fun, for make your own post and stop highjacking all these threads into a pity party. PS: 1 in 6 women in engineering is not even close as your claim of 1 in 10 in sciences. If you're going to spew stats, better back em up. PPS: I didnt realize engineering school was a market. Get your priorities straight and maybe your life will suck less.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shah269 0 #38 May 11, 2011 What! Look if you think it's funny that someone who just due to accident of genetics or timing either does not have the aptitude for math or had the misfortune of having one bad teacher and thus now struggles with math or science, why should we not laugh at engineers and scientist and their inability to dance? Maybe the issue isn't the subject. Maybe it's how the subject is presented? It's a well known fact that the US system of education with respect to math and science is broken. It's a lecture type environment for the most part. And this is sadly due to our method of evaluation. "Teach to the test" kills creativity. And some people, creativity is their life blood. So maybe if the system were to be modified such that it were more inquiry based and more open for discussion then those who once found math and science to be impossible would understand...that in reality math is the universal language. And thus, maybe we will finally start getting real innovation and invention and take solid steps forward to a better future. Furthermore, look....I hate to say it. Engineers are underpaid. After a given number of years and terms of success....you are truly betty off as a business major than an engineer. And that's not me talking that's just the facts on the ground. Look at what the finance houses are paying their top 30% compared to what the top 30% of our engineers get. We as a nation can and should do better.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #39 May 11, 2011 QuoteQuote Off topic-- Why does every thread turn into Shah talking about how smart women are overweight and ugly and don't take care of themselves? wow don't put words in my mouth. I just said Quote Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. yeah, those statements are guaranteed to improve your sex life, dude. With Rosie, that is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shah269 0 #40 May 11, 2011 QuoteQuote Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. yeah, those statements are guaranteed to improve your sex life, dude. With Rosie, that is. Look those were exact words from one of my female friends who was an engineer but thought she had it too easy and went into education. She LOVED being able to get away with just about anything in the office or class because she was the "cute girl". And why waste the time chasing engineering girls? Bad RIO. Too much work, and the odds are not with the dude. Ever wonder why male nurses or male teachers are so freaking happy? Because if he's not wearing plaid pants with a striped shirt...he's hot! Engineers wiritng poetry....he he he...Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #41 May 11, 2011 Quote While I was there, my university had what they called distribution requirements -- everyone had to take at least 4 humanities classes, 4 math/science classes, and 4 arts/letters classes. Of course we had the easy ones available (rocks for jocks, twinkle-twinkle, computer art, etc), but with that many needed, you generally had to take some real classes as well. Everyone also had to either take or test out of English 101, Composition. Many schools require this, but it's not as effective as it was. As admissions got more competitive, high school students are taking a crapload of AP courses and are entering the school with possible credits in history, english, calculus, physics/chem/bio, and a language. I had met most of the breadth requirements by the end of the first semester. Not sure I see any point in engineering classes, though. I remember the ME students spending that first semester doing countless hours of sketching with a protractor and freehand. It was a combination of useful and torture filter. Would an English major take anything useful away from it? Nope. Calculus might be a stretch too, whereas a good helping of statistics and economics would be a godsend for the social "science" majors. After you've seen a few charts in papers with no labels on the axis, you get a bit irritated at the ignorance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VTmotoMike08 0 #42 May 11, 2011 Quote Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering. I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites oldwomanc6 60 #43 May 11, 2011 "I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career." I couldn't agree more! My son is currently at a school called Full Sail which does away with the bullpucky, and in 22 months at 40 hrs a week will give him a B.S. in Game Development. A minimum of extraneous classes, and he will end up with a hardcore degree in programming, with an emphasis in game dev., and a portfolio to boot. The current college system is broken and needs to be revamped on a wide scale.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 236 #44 May 11, 2011 QuoteWhy? No really why? Why study engineering, math or science? I know I know Per Mr. Duncan the Education Secretary "We have over two million unfilled HIGH WAGE, high skilled jobs...." Ah hu! Sir, what do you call HIGH WAGE? Let's start from the top shall we? Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering. 1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks As a young man this is a serious issue! As a young lady...it's a serious issue!Quote My statistics do not bear that out. I will not tally how many engineer/scientist girlfriends I have had, but I have married three engineers. 2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.Quote Not anywhere I studied or taught. 3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours. Quote Not anywhere I studied or taught. 4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.Quote I use my texts routinely. Much of the material I know verbatim, but references containing material with which I am intimately familiar is invaluable. 5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation. Quote Some people really are not cut out for analytic thought. Although getting into my alma mater in the first place presumed qualification for Mensa, the attrition rate was horrendous - but graduates were sure to know their material cold. 6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO! Quote Okay, where I studied most of the guys were geeks. For those of us who rode motorcycles, sailed, skied, scuba dived, parachuted and so forth it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Brilliant women are MUCH better in bed. 7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid? In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.Quote I think I do a little better than that. Actually, I do not think anyone in my graduating class is in that bracket. So to recap, you basically join the toughest frat house on campus. Survive 4 years of brutal hazing and harsh living standards only to get out and find out that your frat matches up with the Omega Moos and that well the benefits are shit... So why should any guy study science or math or engineering? Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. You poor bastard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #45 May 12, 2011 Quote My son is currently at a school called Full Sail which does away with the bullpucky, and in 22 months at 40 hrs a week will give him a B.S. in Game Development. A minimum of extraneous classes, and he will end up with a hardcore degree in programming, with an emphasis in game dev., and a portfolio to boot. The current college system is broken and needs to be revamped on a wide scale. I'm not sure a trade school approach is the answer. BTW, Full Sail says a BS in game development is 5.5 semesters at a cost of $77,500. Clearly they're making money here; I hope it's true for your son as well. But honestly, it sounds just like the other art and cooking schools out there. Q. Is Full Sail an accredited school? A. Full Sail University is licensed by the Commission for Independent Education, Florida Department of Education to offer Associate of Science, Bachelor of Science, Bachelor of Fine Arts, Master of Science, and Master of Fine Arts degree programs. Additional Information regarding this institution may be obtained by contacting the Commission at 325 West Gaines Street, Suite 1414, Tallahassee, FL 32399-0400, toll-free telephone number (888) 224-6684. Full Sail is accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC), [School# 055214]. The ACCSC is listed by the U.S. Department of Education as a nationally recognized accrediting agency under the provisions of Title 34, Chapter VI, Part 602 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations. Further information may be found at www.accsc.org and on the Accreditation section of our site. ----- more troubling: Q. What do I need to do to be considered for admission to Full Sail? A. In order to be considered for admission to Full Sail, you should first possess a true desire to be a part of this industry. Other requirements include a high school diploma, or GED equivalent, with official high school transcripts and one recommendation letter. Acceptance to Full Sail's undergraduate degrees is not based on grade point average, SAT scores or other standardized test scores. See the Admissions page for more information. ----- If you have money, you're in! Now, not all trade schools should be treated with the same brush. Animation Mentors is located next to and feeds directly into Pixar. It uses some of their people as instructors and has a good reputation. But in the worst cases, the culinary academies claim 98% job placement, but count dishwashing jobs as success. Their degree is not held in high regard in the restaurant industries - people get promoted by putting in time at the bottom, with or without that paper. And in an environment where GPA is irrelevant, you get a group of students that on average tend to be rather mediocre. They won't be setting a higher bar for your son to meet, he'll have to do it himself. He should also be reaching out to industry contacts to see if this program gets him any brownie points, or will get him ignored for every B.S. student from a major university. Right or wrong (and it's mostly right), there is a bias towards the 4 year degree, and against these 'get your degree quick' schools. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #46 May 12, 2011 Quote My statistics do not bear that out. I will not tally how many engineer/scientist girlfriends I have had, but I have married three engineers. not to be mean, but is this proof for or against his claim? Dating 3 is one thing, but you divorced two of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #47 May 12, 2011 Quote I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. They do teach English (4 years worth, typically) in high school, but even with all Honors classes at a top California HS, it wasn't until college that I actually learned to write. You do need this in your career, you're hurt by a failing here. Lack of foreign language skill probably won't hurt you, but a good choice here could be a boon for your career options. History is far worse - the political school boards write the textbooks for the public schools. Now we have intelligent design and creationism in the books. And while it's not as blatant as the grade school and junior high versions, even in high school the US rarely does wrong. In college, patriotism isn't part of the equation. Some of the problem is developmental. The brains of teens, esp in the first 2 years, is quite different from the ones in the college students. And the last problem is that most college frosh have no fucking idea what they want to do. The breadth requirements give them a wider exposure and may redirect them early on. The engineers and many of the other scientists don't have much choice here - the degree track often has so much serialization of course requirements that 3/4 of their schedule is fixed from semester 1 on. But those few electives give them another course if they aren't finding the tough, heavy work of the major of choice not worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shah269 0 #48 May 12, 2011 My final rebuttal....and I'll leave it at that is. Less and less people are studying engineering and science. There are many scio economic reasons. Like it or not, you can be grumpy as you want to be but the facts are the facts....a career in the fields of engineering, math and science needs to really rethink it's sales pitch. For as it stands at the moment....it's not doing very good. Don't argue with me, argue the facts on the ground.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BikerBabe 0 #49 May 12, 2011 Quote Quote I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. They do teach English (4 years worth, typically) in high school, but even with all Honors classes at a top California HS, it wasn't until college that I actually learned to write. You do need this in your career, you're hurt by a failing here. Lack of foreign language skill probably won't hurt you, but a good choice here could be a boon for your career options. History is far worse - the political school boards write the textbooks for the public schools. Now we have intelligent design and creationism in the books. And while it's not as blatant as the grade school and junior high versions, even in high school the US rarely does wrong. In college, patriotism isn't part of the equation. Some of the problem is developmental. The brains of teens, esp in the first 2 years, is quite different from the ones in the college students. And the last problem is that most college frosh have no fucking idea what they want to do. The breadth requirements give them a wider exposure and may redirect them early on. The engineers and many of the other scientists don't have much choice here - the degree track often has so much serialization of course requirements that 3/4 of their schedule is fixed from semester 1 on. But those few electives give them another course if they aren't finding the tough, heavy work of the major of choice not worth it. This. Yeah, don't teach engineers how to write. good god, do you know how many horribly-written SOWs and contracts I had to read in my short career? Seriously folks, even engineers need to know how to write, how the world works, how economies function, and how projects are managed. They aren't teaching that in your junior level dynamics class, i guarantee it. getting rid of core = BAD IDEA!Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Belgian_Draft 0 #50 May 12, 2011 Quote My final rebuttal....and I'll leave it at that is. Less and less people are studying engineering and science. There are many scio economic reasons. Like it or not, you can be grumpy as you want to be but the facts are the facts....a career in the fields of engineering, math and science needs to really rethink it's sales pitch. For as it stands at the moment....it's not doing very good. Don't argue with me, argue the facts on the ground. Guess who didn't pay attention in their English classes. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
shah269 0 #34 May 11, 2011 Yeah, I'm just thinking of Engineers taking modern dance. http://www-scf.usc.edu/~egsa/images/DWTE.JPG On your left...the dudes! http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/135212200_750a88f9a2.jpg On your right .... the chicks! http://api.ning.com/files/GwWx2ElJH4dtaAcdfca4lW-3QyY5Sl1omdKwt*xh66hhUY-xR*OemOd6x7*kT*hYSItLk1fxIn4P88c-Qf0So3uEvG1oIj0Q/umow.jpg Ok boys....girls....and we are now going to learn how to dance...hold hands! Oh wait there are 6 dudes per every girl....ok hum...well....ok some of you guys will have to hold hands. Oh I'm just now being very mean. But yeah sure why not! Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #35 May 11, 2011 Quote That's not a well known fact and was not my experience at all. Most of my science classes were pretty equally split between men and women, some even had more women than men. http://www.swe.org/swe/regiond/sections/sefl/Templates/StatisticsonWomeninEngineering%5B1%5D.pdf Ok I was off 1 girl per 6 dudes. Still sounds like a buyers market to me. But I coudl be wrong, we need to start a thread called "Post the picture of the hot engineering chick" By we I fully mean you Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #36 May 11, 2011 QuoteWhy should any company pay any engineer or scientist more than what the feds pay? You pay your people the "going market rate". In the sciences...that is set by the DOD the largest employer of scientists and engineers in the US? I know this can't be true, since you've posted repeatedly that you make over 100,000 and how that is so little money in New Jersey."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #37 May 11, 2011 Quote Quote That's not a well known fact and was not my experience at all. Most of my science classes were pretty equally split between men and women, some even had more women than men. http://www.swe.org/swe/regiond/sections/sefl/Templates/StatisticsonWomeninEngineering%5B1%5D.pdf Ok I was off 1 girl per 6 dudes. Still sounds like a buyers market to me. But I coudl be wrong, we need to start a thread called "Post the picture of the hot engineering chick" By we I fully mean you have fun, for make your own post and stop highjacking all these threads into a pity party. PS: 1 in 6 women in engineering is not even close as your claim of 1 in 10 in sciences. If you're going to spew stats, better back em up. PPS: I didnt realize engineering school was a market. Get your priorities straight and maybe your life will suck less.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #38 May 11, 2011 What! Look if you think it's funny that someone who just due to accident of genetics or timing either does not have the aptitude for math or had the misfortune of having one bad teacher and thus now struggles with math or science, why should we not laugh at engineers and scientist and their inability to dance? Maybe the issue isn't the subject. Maybe it's how the subject is presented? It's a well known fact that the US system of education with respect to math and science is broken. It's a lecture type environment for the most part. And this is sadly due to our method of evaluation. "Teach to the test" kills creativity. And some people, creativity is their life blood. So maybe if the system were to be modified such that it were more inquiry based and more open for discussion then those who once found math and science to be impossible would understand...that in reality math is the universal language. And thus, maybe we will finally start getting real innovation and invention and take solid steps forward to a better future. Furthermore, look....I hate to say it. Engineers are underpaid. After a given number of years and terms of success....you are truly betty off as a business major than an engineer. And that's not me talking that's just the facts on the ground. Look at what the finance houses are paying their top 30% compared to what the top 30% of our engineers get. We as a nation can and should do better.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 May 11, 2011 QuoteQuote Off topic-- Why does every thread turn into Shah talking about how smart women are overweight and ugly and don't take care of themselves? wow don't put words in my mouth. I just said Quote Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. yeah, those statements are guaranteed to improve your sex life, dude. With Rosie, that is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #40 May 11, 2011 QuoteQuote Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. yeah, those statements are guaranteed to improve your sex life, dude. With Rosie, that is. Look those were exact words from one of my female friends who was an engineer but thought she had it too easy and went into education. She LOVED being able to get away with just about anything in the office or class because she was the "cute girl". And why waste the time chasing engineering girls? Bad RIO. Too much work, and the odds are not with the dude. Ever wonder why male nurses or male teachers are so freaking happy? Because if he's not wearing plaid pants with a striped shirt...he's hot! Engineers wiritng poetry....he he he...Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 May 11, 2011 Quote While I was there, my university had what they called distribution requirements -- everyone had to take at least 4 humanities classes, 4 math/science classes, and 4 arts/letters classes. Of course we had the easy ones available (rocks for jocks, twinkle-twinkle, computer art, etc), but with that many needed, you generally had to take some real classes as well. Everyone also had to either take or test out of English 101, Composition. Many schools require this, but it's not as effective as it was. As admissions got more competitive, high school students are taking a crapload of AP courses and are entering the school with possible credits in history, english, calculus, physics/chem/bio, and a language. I had met most of the breadth requirements by the end of the first semester. Not sure I see any point in engineering classes, though. I remember the ME students spending that first semester doing countless hours of sketching with a protractor and freehand. It was a combination of useful and torture filter. Would an English major take anything useful away from it? Nope. Calculus might be a stretch too, whereas a good helping of statistics and economics would be a godsend for the social "science" majors. After you've seen a few charts in papers with no labels on the axis, you get a bit irritated at the ignorance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #42 May 11, 2011 Quote Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering. I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 60 #43 May 11, 2011 "I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career." I couldn't agree more! My son is currently at a school called Full Sail which does away with the bullpucky, and in 22 months at 40 hrs a week will give him a B.S. in Game Development. A minimum of extraneous classes, and he will end up with a hardcore degree in programming, with an emphasis in game dev., and a portfolio to boot. The current college system is broken and needs to be revamped on a wide scale.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #44 May 11, 2011 QuoteWhy? No really why? Why study engineering, math or science? I know I know Per Mr. Duncan the Education Secretary "We have over two million unfilled HIGH WAGE, high skilled jobs...." Ah hu! Sir, what do you call HIGH WAGE? Let's start from the top shall we? Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering. 1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks As a young man this is a serious issue! As a young lady...it's a serious issue!Quote My statistics do not bear that out. I will not tally how many engineer/scientist girlfriends I have had, but I have married three engineers. 2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.Quote Not anywhere I studied or taught. 3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours. Quote Not anywhere I studied or taught. 4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.Quote I use my texts routinely. Much of the material I know verbatim, but references containing material with which I am intimately familiar is invaluable. 5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation. Quote Some people really are not cut out for analytic thought. Although getting into my alma mater in the first place presumed qualification for Mensa, the attrition rate was horrendous - but graduates were sure to know their material cold. 6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO! Quote Okay, where I studied most of the guys were geeks. For those of us who rode motorcycles, sailed, skied, scuba dived, parachuted and so forth it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Brilliant women are MUCH better in bed. 7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid? In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.Quote I think I do a little better than that. Actually, I do not think anyone in my graduating class is in that bracket. So to recap, you basically join the toughest frat house on campus. Survive 4 years of brutal hazing and harsh living standards only to get out and find out that your frat matches up with the Omega Moos and that well the benefits are shit... So why should any guy study science or math or engineering? Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences. You poor bastard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #45 May 12, 2011 Quote My son is currently at a school called Full Sail which does away with the bullpucky, and in 22 months at 40 hrs a week will give him a B.S. in Game Development. A minimum of extraneous classes, and he will end up with a hardcore degree in programming, with an emphasis in game dev., and a portfolio to boot. The current college system is broken and needs to be revamped on a wide scale. I'm not sure a trade school approach is the answer. BTW, Full Sail says a BS in game development is 5.5 semesters at a cost of $77,500. Clearly they're making money here; I hope it's true for your son as well. But honestly, it sounds just like the other art and cooking schools out there. Q. Is Full Sail an accredited school? A. Full Sail University is licensed by the Commission for Independent Education, Florida Department of Education to offer Associate of Science, Bachelor of Science, Bachelor of Fine Arts, Master of Science, and Master of Fine Arts degree programs. Additional Information regarding this institution may be obtained by contacting the Commission at 325 West Gaines Street, Suite 1414, Tallahassee, FL 32399-0400, toll-free telephone number (888) 224-6684. Full Sail is accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC), [School# 055214]. The ACCSC is listed by the U.S. Department of Education as a nationally recognized accrediting agency under the provisions of Title 34, Chapter VI, Part 602 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations. Further information may be found at www.accsc.org and on the Accreditation section of our site. ----- more troubling: Q. What do I need to do to be considered for admission to Full Sail? A. In order to be considered for admission to Full Sail, you should first possess a true desire to be a part of this industry. Other requirements include a high school diploma, or GED equivalent, with official high school transcripts and one recommendation letter. Acceptance to Full Sail's undergraduate degrees is not based on grade point average, SAT scores or other standardized test scores. See the Admissions page for more information. ----- If you have money, you're in! Now, not all trade schools should be treated with the same brush. Animation Mentors is located next to and feeds directly into Pixar. It uses some of their people as instructors and has a good reputation. But in the worst cases, the culinary academies claim 98% job placement, but count dishwashing jobs as success. Their degree is not held in high regard in the restaurant industries - people get promoted by putting in time at the bottom, with or without that paper. And in an environment where GPA is irrelevant, you get a group of students that on average tend to be rather mediocre. They won't be setting a higher bar for your son to meet, he'll have to do it himself. He should also be reaching out to industry contacts to see if this program gets him any brownie points, or will get him ignored for every B.S. student from a major university. Right or wrong (and it's mostly right), there is a bias towards the 4 year degree, and against these 'get your degree quick' schools. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #46 May 12, 2011 Quote My statistics do not bear that out. I will not tally how many engineer/scientist girlfriends I have had, but I have married three engineers. not to be mean, but is this proof for or against his claim? Dating 3 is one thing, but you divorced two of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 May 12, 2011 Quote I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. They do teach English (4 years worth, typically) in high school, but even with all Honors classes at a top California HS, it wasn't until college that I actually learned to write. You do need this in your career, you're hurt by a failing here. Lack of foreign language skill probably won't hurt you, but a good choice here could be a boon for your career options. History is far worse - the political school boards write the textbooks for the public schools. Now we have intelligent design and creationism in the books. And while it's not as blatant as the grade school and junior high versions, even in high school the US rarely does wrong. In college, patriotism isn't part of the equation. Some of the problem is developmental. The brains of teens, esp in the first 2 years, is quite different from the ones in the college students. And the last problem is that most college frosh have no fucking idea what they want to do. The breadth requirements give them a wider exposure and may redirect them early on. The engineers and many of the other scientists don't have much choice here - the degree track often has so much serialization of course requirements that 3/4 of their schedule is fixed from semester 1 on. But those few electives give them another course if they aren't finding the tough, heavy work of the major of choice not worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #48 May 12, 2011 My final rebuttal....and I'll leave it at that is. Less and less people are studying engineering and science. There are many scio economic reasons. Like it or not, you can be grumpy as you want to be but the facts are the facts....a career in the fields of engineering, math and science needs to really rethink it's sales pitch. For as it stands at the moment....it's not doing very good. Don't argue with me, argue the facts on the ground.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #49 May 12, 2011 Quote Quote I agree. Which is why I think we should just rid of gen eds and core curriculum entirely in college studies. There's a time and a place for general education- its called high school. I've only been out of college for two years now but I feel that gives me enough perspective to say that the music appreciation, history and art classes that I was forced to take while I was studying for my engineering degree were a complete waste of my time and money. That time would have better been spent taking more technical electives. I say finish up the general studies in high school and leave college for things that will actually train me for my chosen career. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. They do teach English (4 years worth, typically) in high school, but even with all Honors classes at a top California HS, it wasn't until college that I actually learned to write. You do need this in your career, you're hurt by a failing here. Lack of foreign language skill probably won't hurt you, but a good choice here could be a boon for your career options. History is far worse - the political school boards write the textbooks for the public schools. Now we have intelligent design and creationism in the books. And while it's not as blatant as the grade school and junior high versions, even in high school the US rarely does wrong. In college, patriotism isn't part of the equation. Some of the problem is developmental. The brains of teens, esp in the first 2 years, is quite different from the ones in the college students. And the last problem is that most college frosh have no fucking idea what they want to do. The breadth requirements give them a wider exposure and may redirect them early on. The engineers and many of the other scientists don't have much choice here - the degree track often has so much serialization of course requirements that 3/4 of their schedule is fixed from semester 1 on. But those few electives give them another course if they aren't finding the tough, heavy work of the major of choice not worth it. This. Yeah, don't teach engineers how to write. good god, do you know how many horribly-written SOWs and contracts I had to read in my short career? Seriously folks, even engineers need to know how to write, how the world works, how economies function, and how projects are managed. They aren't teaching that in your junior level dynamics class, i guarantee it. getting rid of core = BAD IDEA!Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #50 May 12, 2011 Quote My final rebuttal....and I'll leave it at that is. Less and less people are studying engineering and science. There are many scio economic reasons. Like it or not, you can be grumpy as you want to be but the facts are the facts....a career in the fields of engineering, math and science needs to really rethink it's sales pitch. For as it stands at the moment....it's not doing very good. Don't argue with me, argue the facts on the ground. Guess who didn't pay attention in their English classes. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
