What if Jesus didn't die on the cross

[jaybird18c 24]

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You make a lot of assumptions that are not supported by evidence.

As do you.

[kallend 2,026]

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Atheism is simply a disbelief in any god.

What started the evolutionary process is unknown, if there ever was a beginning. It has nothing to do with atheism.

Your belief that god did it is not based on any evidence.

Hold to your atheistic position dude. If God didn't create, then it just started itself for no reason.

Why not Nyx, Chaos, Tiamat, Ginnungagap, Vishnu?

There is exactly the same amount of evidence for them as for your "God"... NONE.

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If you don't want to use the term atheist with regard to this, how about naturalist? I don't care. The question is still the same. Design implies a designer, does it not?

No.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

What assumptions am I making?

[billvon 2,990]

>that everything came from nothing on its own, blew up, and organized itself through
>random process, and sustains itself?

No scientist I know thinks that. It's a strawman, a false position you have created in your imagination so it's easier to argue against.

[kallend 2,026]

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What assumptions am I making?

You are assuming that logic has any meaning to a fundamentalist Christian.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

Yeah, it's unfortunate that logic and critical thinking is lost on them.

[rehmwa 2]

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in order to be agnostic, you must be at least open to the possibility.

not really - you only have to be open to the idea that it isn't provable one way or the other

(by the way, to be religious, you also have to acknowledge that there is zero proof, and that your belief is entirely faith based - but few religious people are pure in their faith and tend to look for rationalizations. atheism is the only denial, but it's a reasonable position of denial in this case - even if it's obnoxious and smug)

and/or just not care either way

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Southern_Man 0]

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There is really not a philosophical difference between claiming that the universe came into existence form nothing and organized itself and claiming that God organized the universe and made it. It merely pushes the point of unknowing back one step and in either case it asserts a claim that is unknowable and unprovable.

But it does establish the fact (which supposed atheists seem to withdraw from) that their beliefs are based on a presupposition just like the man of faith in God. (which influences their thinking going forward.)

You seem to think that but I don't think that it is necessarily true. I honestly spend just about zero time thinking about the origin of the universe. Although I have a basic understanding of the Big Bang Theory I don't have any sort of in-depth knowledge of how well supported it is or isn't although I am vaguesly aware that a universe that is accelerating its expansion is sort of a problem for that theory. I also understand that there are observational limits on how far back we can go or even speculate and prior to the point where general relativity breaks down even the scientists concede that we don't really know what preceeded that. We don't know if it was nothingness (as you seem to posit) or something else. I honestly don't spend a lot of time thinking about it because it doesn't effect my life at all. I do like reading about some parts of natural science but astrophysics has never been a big part of that.

Frankly what I think you are missing is that your claim that the universe is designed is a base assertion. You see design and elegance, I see randomness. I'm not 100% sure why its all here or where it came from except to say that what we see is what we got. Just because this is the world we ended up with doesn't mean that it was inevitable or designed--it just is what it is.

Based on my profession that I don't know I'm guessing you might label me an agnostic. I woud call myself an atheist but I'm not sure the label is all that important to me. I just prefer to say I don't believe in God because I don't see any evidence. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it or pondering it for the same reason I don't think a lot about cosmology, it just has no influence on my day to day life. (I do spend a lot of time thinking about religious history and the history of religious thought because I find that fascinating but that is quite different from thinking about God).

Anyway claiming that the universe has design because a designer God designed it is really circular logic. Prime unmoved mover and all of that I know but it becomes a bit of a rhetorical tautology.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Shotgun 1]

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atheism is the only denial, but it's a reasonable position of denial in this case - even if it's obnoxious and smug

People come up with this "God" idea, and I'm obnoxious and smug for not believing it? There's all kinds of apparently made-up stuff that I don't believe in. Am I obnoxious and smug for not believing everything that I hear? Is the "God" idea special because of the large number of people that believe in it, or because it has special words for not believing in it or not being sure about it?

[rehmwa 2]

you're pretty cool about it actually, Keely. It was a general comment on the more activist segment.

I can say the same thing about the sliver of religious types that are bit more in your face about their faith too

I'm more anti--in-your-face-posturing. this means I hate children and old people, and likely hide stuff on the internet

it's kinda tough here to see who's in that group here from either side - the argument goes so far back that you can't figure out "who did it first", but it's pretty easy on rockclimbing.com to see the weirdos on the topic - the big anti's here are compassionate and tolerant compared to that crowd


on the other hand - if you believe in USPA Coach and PRO ratings, then I can't help you

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,489]

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You would like to oversimplify the issue

Oh good lord, please tell me that was funny on purpose!

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It is also a faith position because you can’t prove it.

By that measure everything is a faith position if one can posit a non-disprovable alternative. But that makes the entire notion of 'faith' meaningless.

For instance, I could suggest that you may just be a brain in a jar. So are you agnostic about whether the walls of your house actually exist?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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"Everything that has come into existence was brought into existence by something else." "By definition, the Christian God never came into existence;

Hey, now that's really clever - in one simple step you've managed to define away all of your logical problems.

Oh no wait, I just remembered it doesn't work like that, the first cause argument is still fucked.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[beowulf 1]

Well he got it partly right!

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the Christian God never came into existence

[jaybird18c 24]

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Oh no wait, I just remembered it doesn't work like that, the first cause argument is still fucked.

So is your infinite regression argument.

[devildog 0]

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"Everything that has come into existence was brought into existence by something else." "By definition, the Christian God never came into existence;

Hey, now that's really clever - in one simple step you've managed to define away all of your logical problems.

Oh no wait, I just remembered it doesn't work like that, the first cause argument is still fucked.

How is anything, God or not, that is eternal, constrained by time?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jimbrown 0]

[replyTruthfully, the 'swoon' theory is by far the weakest of all counter theories. How did he get out of the tomb?Over power Roman guards.

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Getting out of the tomb and bribing Roman guards would seem easier than ressurecting oneself from the dead.

I didn't say I had a Masters in theology to impress you or state it's value. I said it because my study was built on the teachings and research of men far greater than any one person. Plus, your personal insults don't impress, nor sway me. Live and let live ...

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I didn't mean to insult you but I do mean to state that I'm not too impressed by any Masters degree in theology. I'm not too impressed with the "teachings and research " of those men you refer to and who you seem to hold in such high regard.

Can I ask you a question? why would a whuffo such as yourself want to post on a skydiver's forum?

[jimbrown 0]

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Then you elect to just shut up...that's what I thought.

I must admit, I was hoping for some dialogue...

It saddens me to see you cower like this...I had much respect for you.

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Ya know Coreece, according to the Bible Jesus cowered and allowed Himself to be crucified.
Did you lose respect for Him as well??

Hey ,here is something for you to consider;
Ego tends to cause one to temporarily detour from the path mapped by the Master.

That's OK. Eventually you will find Truth and Enlightenment. It is inevitable.

Peace, and Smile through the Journey!
Travel with a Light Heart,
Jim B

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[steveorino 7]

I ask you a question? why would a whiff such as yourself want to post on a skydiver's forum?

[jimbrown 0]

I see no evidence your D # is less than D-1300 or that you have over 4400 jumps. Therefore I'm a non-believer. ;)

Blessed are those who don't see but believe

But I was calculating based on your claim of d- over 25,000.
I'm not lower than D1300.

Peace .
Travel with a Light Heart,
Jim B

[jimbrown 0]

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OK now.., don't throw stones!!!

What if Jesus didn't ever actually die on the cross?

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Would that make his teachings less valid?

Peace and Travel with a Light Heart,
Jim B

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[jakee 1,489]

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Oh no wait, I just remembered it doesn't work like that, the first cause argument is still fucked.

So is your infinite regression argument.

Why? I don't have a problem with it. You're still the guy trying to say that everything must have a cause because everything must be caused, except for the thing that doesn't have to be caused. So... convenient. Kinda like you're age of the universe arguments - "Well hey, if we just imagine that pixie dust and fairy magic was involved then the sun could so totally be at its current stage of life after only 6,000 years. Who knows how it worked before we started looking at it?"



Oh, and have you figured out yet how you can know that Jehovah is the one true god but also be agnostic about the FSM? Them logical contradictions just keep piling up now don't they?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[maadmax 0]

Again, any double-blind attempt at verification of your claims reveals them to be complete bullshit, coming and going.

[jakee 1,489]

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“A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) ... . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.

You need rudimentary lessons on, well, many things actually - but right now you should start with selection bias and set theory.

The quality of your writing indicates that you are actually capable of using your brain, so seeing you unquestioningly parrot this nonsense is just embarrassing.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,990]

>A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin
>or inventor) . . .

Pulsars send complex radio pulses in a code. Extraterrestrials, or natural emissions from neutron stars?

>It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code.

Galaxies show a structure called a Fibonacci spiral, which can be calculated via a geometric expansion of the Fibonacci code. God messing with us, or the natural result of gravitational attraction within a disk of stars?

>There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information

Snowflakes are complex structures, often unique, each of which contains a wealth of coded information. Godflakes, or the result of crystallization of water within a chaotic environment?

Some religious types prefer to substitute religion for understanding. Such intentional ignorance is fine (we all choose to remain ignorant on some matters) but often gets people in trouble when they try to claim their ignorance is really just a "different kind of understanding." It isn't; it's just ignorance.

Fortunately most religious types understand the difference between religion and science, and do not allow one to replace the other.

[winsor 236]

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Again, any double-blind attempt at verification of your claims reveals them to be complete bullshit, coming and going.

Got you covered. I am proof of what I say, as are many other believers. I was doubly blind. But through the Grace of God now I can see and live life more abundantly. If you knew anything you would know that spiritual phenomenon is validated by the fruit it produces not by some experiment.

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