rushmc 23 #76 May 16, 2011 QuoteDo the men who become prisoners of war accept the process? Does a man being questioned at a police station accept the process, even if it includes being roughed up? Does that make it OK? Context isn't everything, Marc, but power, and the ability to say NO and have it matter, means a lot. SEALs can say NO. Boxers can say NO. Women in consensual relationships can say NO. Beating victims, rape victims, and prisoners of war cannot say NO. And saying that torture (which waterboarding was defined as before) is part of establishing dominance is bullshit. The subjects are prisoners of war. They're not in charge of anything. Wendy P. Explain the no thing to the family and friends of the people in the towers. I dont like it either There are a good many things neither of us Like That does not change what the reality is"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,446 #77 May 16, 2011 Why do you think they use waterboarding on the SEALs? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #78 May 16, 2011 FWIW There's a well none person that posts in this forum that used to work at the Mock POW camp located in eastern WA. I can't expose their ID because they might torture meHmmm Who could that be or am I just blowing smoke???? One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #79 May 16, 2011 QuoteWhy do you think they use waterboarding on the SEALs? Wendy P. To help them understand the effectiveness of the process Do you think they are trained to use it too? If you understand the effects do you think they might be better at doing it?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #80 May 16, 2011 QuoteDo you think those men going through SEAR want to be water boarded? Or is it part of the process they acept Or course they don't want to be waterboarded. However, they know when they apply for their job it's going to happen, but they also know that it will not result in them drowning. They also know that they can opt out. Sure there will be consequences if they opt out, but they always have that choice. They choose to get waterboarded because it is part of their training. They may also view it is useful training if they ever get captured and the enemy tortures them. We don't do it to them for fun, there is a higher purpose, and they accept that. The boxer doesn't want to get hit in the face either. He knows, however, that getting hit is part of the sport. The point is, if he wants to quit at any time, that option is available. The assault victim on the street doesn't have that option, that's one reason why the situation is so different. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #81 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteDo you think those men going through SEAR want to be water boarded? Or is it part of the process they acept Or course they don't want to be waterboarded. However, they know when they apply for their job it's going to happen, but they also know that it will not result in them drowning. They also know that they can opt out. Sure there will be consequences if they opt out, but they always have that choice. They choose to get waterboarded because it is part of their training. They may also view it is useful training if they ever get captured and the enemy tortures them. We don't do it to them for fun, there is a higher purpose, and they accept that. The boxer doesn't want to get hit in the face either. He knows, however, that getting hit is part of the sport. The point is, if he wants to quit at any time, that option is available. The assault victim on the street doesn't have that option, that's one reason why the situation is so different. Did you ever hear Ollie North talk about it? While he does acknowledge your point, I do not think he agrees with your assessment (and he has been through it and administered it too)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #82 May 16, 2011 Quoteyou assume way too damed much Wendy Well, there is nothing like a dame. For the life of me, I truly don't understand why these folks even bother arguing with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #83 May 16, 2011 I did not hear him talk about it. The fact that he has been through it gives credence to his viewpoint on whether it is torture or not, but it doesn't change the fact that the context of the action matters. Let me be clear: I'm not arguing with you about whether waterboarding is torture or not. That is the braoder argument, but this particular thread is more focused. In this thread, I'm arguing with your reasoning that it can't be torture because we do it to our own troops. That argument doesn't stand. You can still think that it is not torture because it doesn't hurt enough, or whatever, but basing your opinion on the fact that we do it to our own is not tenable. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #84 May 16, 2011 QuoteWell, there is nothing like a dame. For the life of me, I truly don't understand why these folks even bother arguing with you. I'm assuming other people who have not made up their mind, or are at least open to the possibility that they are wrong, are reading this. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,446 #85 May 16, 2011 So it has nothing to do with helping them to understand what might happen to them, and to harden them up to the effects of torture? Really, we're all talking about a continuum here, torture. Few would argue that hooking someone's genitalia up to electrodes isn't torture, and few would argue that depriving someone of coffee in the morning is torture. And in between there isn't a hard-and-fast line that's really obvious. This is one that seems to have shifted. It was never considered to be on a par with the rack or breaking bones, but Roosevelt fired a general for doing it in the Spanish American war; that would indicate that it wasn't approved of then. But even then, it was torture-lite, rather than torture-heavy. Most of us on dz.com have no direct experience with torture, other than girlfriends/boyfriends going out with others, or older siblings tickling us. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #86 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteyou assume way too damed much Wendy Well, there is nothing like a dame. For the life of me, I truly don't understand why these folks even bother arguing with you. Ya It is really hard for professional dick heads to deal with someone that has an opinion. Someone who sticks to his guns and opinions Someone who can treat others with respect while going over the differences What do you think?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #87 May 16, 2011 QuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #88 May 16, 2011 QuoteSo it has nothing to do with helping them to understand what might happen to them, and to harden them up to the effects of torture? Or is it to help them be better at administering it? Really, we're all talking about a continuum here, torture. Few would argue that hooking someone's genitalia up to electrodes isn't torture, and few would argue that depriving someone of coffee in the morning is torture. And in between there isn't a hard-and-fast line that's really obvious. This is one that seems to have shifted. It was never considered to be on a par with the rack or breaking bones, but Roosevelt fired a general for doing it in the Spanish American war; that would indicate that it wasn't approved of then. But even then, it was torture-lite, rather than torture-heavy. Most of us on dz.com have no direct experience with torture, other than girlfriends/boyfriends going out with others, or older siblings tickling us. I hope that does not change Wendy P."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #89 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #90 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? if an idiot (obviously not you) had stood up a few centuries back and said 'the inquisition doesn't torture' in public what would the response have been?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #91 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? if an idiot (obviously not you) had stood up a few centuries back and said 'the inquisition doesn't torture' in public what would the response have been? I dont know what would an idiot who reads alternet say?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #92 May 16, 2011 SEALs and others who go through SERE training are not interrogators. That's not their job. Interrogators may go through SERE as well, I don't know, but the majority of people who go through it are certainly not being trained on how to do it. SERE stands for Survive Evade Resist Escape. There are different levels of training, with the real stuff being reserved for operators and pilots who are likely to find themselves behind enemy lines. It is not a how-to course on torture. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,446 #93 May 16, 2011 Marc, the problem isn't having an opinion. It's the fact that generally you answer only in fairly cryptic one-liners. The posts that you made that gave some context to why you came to that conclusion helped. But refusing to engage in discussion (one-liners with no content aren't discussion) really isn't "sticking to your guns;" it's closer to sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating a mantra. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #94 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote We do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? if an idiot (obviously not you) had stood up a few centuries back and said 'the inquisition doesn't torture' in public what would the response have been? I dont know use your imagination stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #95 May 16, 2011 QuoteMarc, the problem isn't having an opinion. It's the fact that generally you answer only in fairly cryptic one-liners. The posts that you made that gave some context to why you came to that conclusion helped. But refusing to engage in discussion (one-liners with no content aren't discussion) really isn't "sticking to your guns;" it's closer to sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating a mantra. Wendy P. Repeating my earlier answers do not change anything You, I and others disagree Lawyers for Bush do not think it is torture Do I like it? No Is it necessary? Yes Do I have to deal with assholes polity here? No If they want to veil insults in the questions they will. But they set the tone I can play the game too Fun? Not really But I guess that others thinking I am wrong makes me something other than wrong Not really fun at all I think my points are just as on the money as you and other do So I guess I should just bend over and grab my ankles Fuck that"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #96 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote We do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? if an idiot (obviously not you) had stood up a few centuries back and said 'the inquisition doesn't torture' in public what would the response have been? I dont know use your imagination As opposed to your delusions?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,446 #97 May 16, 2011 Thanks; yeah, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I've had my viewpoint changed by stuff I've seen on dz.com; at the very least, colored by it (i.e. I'm not going to change my world view probably, but individual opinions that color my world view yes). I hope that continues. I went to school with Alberto Gonzales (no, I didn't know him at all well; I think I met him a few times), and was very disposed to like him when Bush appointed him. But I really thought that opinion was a "how do we justify what we want to do" opinion, rather than a "what is right" opinion. And the two are very different things. Wanting to do something doesn't make it right. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #98 May 16, 2011 QuoteSEALs and others who go through SERE training are not interrogators. That's not their job. Interrogators may go through SERE as well, I don't know, but the majority of people who go through it are certainly not being trained on how to do it. SERE stands for Survive Evade Resist Escape. There are different levels of training, with the real stuff being reserved for operators and pilots who are likely to find themselves behind enemy lines. It is not a how-to course on torture. I did not say it was a traing course I know what SERE stands for But In a situtation Would it be nice to know how to do something? Is there a better way to understand the effects and tech. than to go through it?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #99 May 16, 2011 Wanting to do something doesn't make it right. Wendy P. No it doesnt But disliking something does not make is torture either I dislike waterboarding I think it is a terrible thing to do That does not make it, in my opinion, torutre however. How about this? Does a SC ruling make something right? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/15/indiana-high-court-rules-people-resist-illegal-entry-police-homes/"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #100 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? you're saying that it is ok for the state to torture its citizens - ie me. you can shove that opinion where the sun don't shine...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
you're saying that it is ok for the state to torture its citizens - ie me. you can shove that opinion where the sun don't shine...
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
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