Andy9o8 2 #126 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems like a lot of naive people around. the stupid ones who think torture is ok by the state are the ones i worry about... I am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. I am bothered by those who demonize people with whom they ideologically disagree with labels that are factually inaccurate. It's a sly way of playing the person and not the ball. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #127 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems like a lot of naive people around. the stupid ones who think torture is ok by the state are the ones i worry about... I am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. america doesn't have a soul...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #128 May 17, 2011 Quote I am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. I am bothered by those who demonize people with whom they ideologically disagree with labels that are factually inaccurate. It's a sly way of playing the person and not the ball. I did not have any one person in mind. However, thank you for thinking of me as sly. I like that. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #129 May 17, 2011 QuoteI did not have any one person in mind. Nor did I mean to suggest you did. You were using the label technique to demonize the whole category of people who disagree with you on this issue. I stand by my post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #130 May 17, 2011 Quote america doesn't have a soul... Sad to say, I am leaning in that direction as well. The object now is to locate and band with those who remember when America did have a soul.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #131 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteI did not have any one person in mind. Nor did I mean to suggest you did. You were using the label technique to demonize the whole category of people who disagree with you on this issue. I stand by my post. I'm in the weeds. My problem not yours. I drifted in this morning without much of a focus.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #132 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuote america doesn't have a soul... Sad to say, I am leaning in that direction as well. The object now is to locate and band with those who remember when America did have a soul. america never had a soul - and never willstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #133 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuote america doesn't have a soul... Sad to say, I am leaning in that direction as well. The object now is to locate and band with those who remember when America did have a soul. See my post #14 re: the Allies' comportment during WWII & Korea (and, for that matter, Vietnam) when as a matter of policy the Allies did not torture, as compared with the Germans, Japanese, N. Koreans and N. Vietnamese, who did. Yeah, the good ole days, when America had a soul. Modern-day terrorism doesn't win when we don't torture, Ron - it wins when we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #134 May 17, 2011 Quote america never had a soul - and never will I'm sorry, I mistook you for one of US. My apologies, have a good day.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #135 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuote america never had a soul - and never will I'm sorry. don't be sorry - america is just a line drawn on the map. does the eu have a soul?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #136 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote america doesn't have a soul... Sad to say, I am leaning in that direction as well. The object now is to locate and band with those who remember when America did have a soul. See my post #14 re: the Allies' comportment during WWII & Korea (and, for that matter, Vietnam) when as a matter of policy the Allies did not torture, as compared with the Germans, Japanese, N. Koreans and N. Vietnamese, who did. Yeah, the good ole days, when America had a soul. Modern-day terrorism doesn't win when we don't torture, Ron - it wins when we do. Your point is profound and I am not up to par. I do not disagree but I am not capable of a satisfactory comment in response. You always make me think and right now not very well. Later pal.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #137 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWe do not agree but you stayed respectful more than kallend and dreamy boy can say i don't want to be tortured - you're making it easier for the state to do so. idiocy, however it is presented, has to be countered... Another false premise you learned from where? you're saying that it is ok for the state to torture its citizens - ie me. you can shove that opinion where the sun don't shine... No, I am not yes you are. its fine by you for the state to torture its citizens. you keep saying it - then denying it... dishonest idiots try to mischaracterize other peoples positions to reframe the debate It is what you are doing?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #138 May 17, 2011 QuoteSome people voluntarily choose to have their genitalia pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the genitals of POWs is not torture. Some people voluntarily choose to have their noses, navels and cheeks pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the bodies of POWs is not torture. Some people, those into S&M, voluntarily choose to be whipped. Using rushmc "logic" that means whipping and beating POWs is acceptable. Some people choose to have anal sex. Using rushmc "logic" that means sodomizing POWs is acceptable and is not torture. There's something seriously wrong with rushmc "logic". thanks for the professionalisms dick!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #139 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteSome people voluntarily choose to have their genitalia pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the genitals of POWs is not torture. Some people voluntarily choose to have their noses, navels and cheeks pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the bodies of POWs is not torture. Some people, those into S&M, voluntarily choose to be whipped. Using rushmc "logic" that means whipping and beating POWs is acceptable. Some people choose to have anal sex. Using rushmc "logic" that means sodomizing POWs is acceptable and is not torture. There's something seriously wrong with rushmc "logic". thanks for the professionalisms dick! You are welcome. Not able to deny any of it, are you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #140 May 17, 2011 QuoteI am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. Finally the truth comes out. You don't want to torture people to gain intelligence, you want retaliation. How very, very Christian of you. As usual. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #141 May 17, 2011 Quote dishonest idiots try to mischaracterize other peoples positions to reframe the debate It is what you are doing? No one needs to mischaracterize your vile position, you stated it very unambiguously.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #142 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteSome people voluntarily choose to have their genitalia pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the genitals of POWs is not torture. Some people voluntarily choose to have their noses, navels and cheeks pierced. Using rushmc "logic" that means sticking needles into the bodies of POWs is not torture. Some people, those into S&M, voluntarily choose to be whipped. Using rushmc "logic" that means whipping and beating POWs is acceptable. Some people choose to have anal sex. Using rushmc "logic" that means sodomizing POWs is acceptable and is not torture. There's something seriously wrong with rushmc "logic". thanks for the professionalisms dick! You are welcome. Not able to deny any of it, are you? Why would anyone reply to bull shit? It just validates it What do you think Dick?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #143 May 17, 2011 Quote Quote dishonest idiots try to mischaracterize other peoples positions to reframe the debate It is what you are doing? No one needs to mischaracterize your vile position, you stated it very unambiguously. There are no irony meters that could ever survive this post "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #144 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteI am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. Finally the truth comes out. You don't want to torture people to gain intelligence, you want retaliation. How very, very Christian of you. As usual. You are totally unencumbered by insight.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 473 #145 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems like a lot of naive people around. the stupid ones who think torture is ok by the state are the ones i worry about... I am bothered by those who believe it is OK for America to be the victim and not retaliate. The problem is that when a country acts unilaterally, on being the perceived victim with complete disregard to international laws and treaties it becomes a rogue state. America (and us in the UK) are slowly lowering their standards to be just like "them". Idealistically I have no problem with war and protecting national interests. I do have a problem with hypocrisy though. We have decided that if we don't like someone we will attack them, even if it means supporting terrorists in the process (Libya is the current example). Frankly George Bush placed himself alongside Bin Laden when "God" told him to attack Iraq, both men are driven by religious beliefs. However on the subject of torture I am very surprised by your position. Please just remember that the next time Christian missionaries are captured in the middle east and tortured to extract confessions of being spies, not to have double standards. They are religious fundamentalists (the missionaries) and pose a threat to the status quo of those countries. The odds are quite high that western security services are using NGO's, or diplomatic cover to spy on those nations, so they are justified in their actions.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #146 May 17, 2011 Quote Quote Quote dishonest idiots try to mischaracterize other peoples positions to reframe the debate It is what you are doing? No one needs to mischaracterize your vile position, you stated it very unambiguously. There are no irony meters that could ever survive this post Right after you look up "torture" in the dictionary, you'd better look up "irony". It is clear that you don't know the meaning of either word.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #147 May 17, 2011 And you seem to be totally unencumbered by self-reflection. If I'm so lacking in insight, educate me. I find it unlikely you can without resorting to false platitudes, and condescending snide remarks. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #148 May 17, 2011 QuoteAnd you seem to be totally unencumbered by self-reflection. If I'm so lacking in insight, educate me. I find it unlikely you can without resorting to false platitudes, and condescending snide remarks. If you didn't get it from my posts #4, #11 & #18, I can't see where you will get it at all.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #149 May 17, 2011 No, I guess I don't get it, since in your post #11 you said you think we should torture people. You didn't say we should subject them to enhanced interrogation, you said we should torture them. WWJT? Who would Jesus torture? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #150 May 17, 2011 Quote...And if taking a terrorist and skinning the bastard alive (of course keep it a damn secret!-loose lips sink ships!) kept them from carrying out an attack on US schools like in Beslan Russia- think I'd really give a fuck? I realize this post will probably stir up some shit-I just consider it a dose of reality..... Fact is intel has come out of Afghanistan that one of their plans has been attacks on US middle schools. If that intel has helped prevent that horror from happening to your own kids would you honestly give a fuck how it was obtained? We have met the enemy and he is us? Yes. I'd give a fuck how the information was obtained. I'd want to know how many innocent suspects were "skinned alive" to make them talk. What makes the lives of your kids more valuable than the lives of innocent people somewhere else? The reality is that torture doesn't work in the real world. It either gets you misinformation or gets the suspect to confess to whatever the torturer wants him to. It also has a rather nasty tendency to turn the torturer into a sociopathic monster. The "ends justify the means" is a really bad way to go. Keeping this shit a secret (loose lips do sink ships, but that really applies to operational intel, not hiding criminal activity) just allows this sort of behavior to continue and grow. Where do you draw the line? Is it ok to skin someone alive to find out about: An attack on American kids in America? An attack on American adults in America? An attack on American kids overseas? An attack on American adults overseas? An attack on American property in America? An attack on American property overseas? Where is it ok or not ok to torture? And that's presuming you have the initial intel to make a good guess at what the attack is. Do we just skin people alive because we think they might be planning some sort of attack somewhere that might (or might not) be American? Oh, yeah. Jimmy Hoffa is probably in little pieces in the Everglades."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
