How to Change US Culture?

[shah269 0]

ha ha! oh so right!
But here in the US we have another problem. None of the kids are interested in science or engineering.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[SivaGanesha 2]

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But here in the US we have another problem. None of the kids are interested in science or engineering.

It's not that the kids aren't interested. It's more that any kid who is smart enough to have a chance for a science or engineering career is also going to be smart enough to figure out that it's not a path to a long term, stable career here in the USA.

In the USA, science and engineering have evolved into being jobs primarily for immigrants. Most jobs go either to new immigrants or are outsourced to foreign countries. Well educated native born Americans tend to be steered into law, medicine, or business careers. When a native born American does study engineering, it is often to set the stage for a career as an executive at an engineering firm--but not as an engineer per se.

It also seems to me that, in the past, we had some high profile science people like Carl Sagan who were able to make science careers seem at least a little bit cool to a certain segment of American youth. It's not clear that anyone has really stepped in to fill Sagan's shoes since his death.

I'm curious, though, why you think all this is a "problem". America has many problems, but attracting large numbers of foreign scientists/engineers to fill jobs in that segment of the economy doesn't seem to be one of America's problems. What is it about this aspect of the system that you consider broken?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[rehmwa 2]

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people like Carl Sagan who were able to make science careers seem at least a little bit cool

seems odd when I see Carl's name and "cool" in the same sentence that there's the problem right there

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SivaGanesha 2]

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seems odd when I see Carl's name and "cool" in the same sentence that there's the problem right there

The point is that you've obviously heard of him.

I doubt there would be an American popular science writer today you'd even have heard of. That's what's changed.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[fossg 0]

It all depends on what group of kids in school ya talk to. When I worked for the local high school district there were kids interested in robotics etc.. they just did not stand out like some of the other kids. I feel confident that America will nurture and create the next generation of engineers etc... and that this country is a "melting pot" is one of the primary reasons that this process will continue

[shah269 0]

Why is this a problem?
Well our economy depends on our kids becoming viable members of the work force.
And there is that national security issues.
But it's all about keeping the middle class alive and well.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[SivaGanesha 2]

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When I worked for the local high school district there were kids interested in robotics etc.. they just did not stand out like some of the other kids. I feel confident that America will nurture and create the next generation of engineers etc... and that this country is a "melting pot" is one of the primary reasons that this process will continue

At this point, there have been several generations in America where kids who like engineering do not "stand out"--at least not in a good way. Younger generations are getting the message (they aren't stupid)--it's not cool to be an engineer in America and there are limits to how far you can go with such a career (although as a ticket into America it works very well). If America really does want to its native born youth to pursue engineering (which I seriously doubt), it's going to be harder than it was in the past.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of the kids who were interested in robotics are like Shah--first generation children of immigrants. They're interested, in a lot of cases, because it worked well for the parents--it was a ticket into the USA. As these kids reach adulthood, however, they will begin to understand (as both Shah and I have) the limitations of such a career in the USA. Many will then, with all due respect to their parents, gravitate to another field as they make college and grad school decisions.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[champu 1]

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It all depends on what group of kids in school ya talk to. When I worked for the local high school district there were kids interested in robotics etc.. they just did not stand out like some of the other kids. I feel confident that America will nurture and create the next generation of engineers etc... and that this country is a "melting pot" is one of the primary reasons that this process will continue

The company I work for sponsors engineering fairs, robotics challenges, etc. for students at local high schools to try and get them excited about that kind of thing. We get a pretty steady stream of e-mails asking for volunteers for those events. I haven't worked at one yet, but I have led a couple tours of our campus to that effect.

Last fall I got to give a guest lecture at the UIUC (my alma mater) engineering career expo talking about what I actually do with my engineering degree. You don’t necessarily have to pick between MMIC designer or management and I think people were glad to hear that.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Well our economy depends on our kids becoming viable members of the work force.

If you want kids to become "viable" members of the workforce, the last thing you should do is encourage them to pursue engineering work--which, by its nature, is very easy to outsource. Work in law, medicine, and business has a significantly greater "human touch" aspect to it and is harder to outsource--so will always lead to more stable middle to upper middle class careers.

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And there is that national security issues.

Yes, that's probably the big issue. I do think America is going to find it increasingly hard to fill engineering roles that require a security clearance and so can't be easily given to immigrants.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kelpdiver 2]

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Well our economy depends on our kids becoming viable members of the work force.

If you want kids to become "viable" members of the workforce, the last thing you should do is encourage them to pursue engineering work--which, by its nature, is very easy to outsource. Work in law, medicine, and business has a significantly greater "human touch" aspect to it and is harder to outsource--so will always lead to more stable middle to upper middle class careers.

not so certain.
The Law suffers from an abundance of lawyers. And a lot of the work can be outsourced - locally to paralegals, or across the ocean. Like dental hygenists, paralegals will take on more routine work.

The medical world (in the US) has artificial restricted the supply of doctors at the school level, unlike law schools, but will still face wage pressure as part of fixing medical costs. And again, lab analysis is being outsourced to India and beyond. The medical profession also suffers from the huge up front investment in time/money. Couple that with the threat of salary decline, and it's not a slam dunk decision.

Business is the hardest to predict. Certainly the allure of really big money has attracted a lot of talent. Unfortunately, as a national product, finance people don't create anything. They just move around wealth.

[wayneflorida 0]

[ Unfortunately, as a national product, finance people don't create anything. They just move around wealth.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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not so certain.
The Law suffers from an abundance of lawyers. And a lot of the work can be outsourced - locally to paralegals, or across the ocean. Like dental hygenists, paralegals will take on more routine work.

The medical world (in the US) has artificial restricted the supply of doctors at the school level, unlike law schools, but will still face wage pressure as part of fixing medical costs. And again, lab analysis is being outsourced to India and beyond. The medical profession also suffers from the huge up front investment in time/money. Couple that with the threat of salary decline, and it's not a slam dunk decision.

Speaking solely about lawyers--and leaving medicine and business aside for the moment--I am a technical person who happens to work with a lot of lawyers. The lawyers IMO are much better than the tech folks about ensuring that their work doesn't get outsourced.

The lawyers are very cautious about how much use they make of email or other electronic communications, preferring in person communication. Their argument--and it makes some sense--is that if we were ever involved in a lawsuit it's best not too have too much of a paper trail which can be revealed in discovery and "can and will be used against you in a court of law".

It's a valid argument but of course there is a second, unspoken, reason for their preference to avoid email: By insisting on in person interaction for a lot of their work, they ensure that it cannot be outsourced. The lawyers actually do outsource some of their work, but only very routine tasks that do not threaten their livelihood.

The engineers, OTOH, email anything and everything.

The result is that, while both engineers and lawyers can be hurt by an economic downturn, the engineers find themselves competing against a global labor force while the lawyers only need to be competitive domestically or perhaps even just within their own state.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kelpdiver 2]

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The lawyers are very cautious about how much use they make of email or other electronic communications, preferring in person communication. Their argument--and it makes some sense--is that if we were ever involved in a lawsuit it's best not too have too much of a paper trail which can be revealed in discovery and "can and will be used against you in a court of law".

less kindly put, they're dinosaurs when it comes to technology, with word perfect lasting far longer in the legal realm than anywhere else. And the courts are even more primitive and happy to be so.