kelpdiver 2 #126 December 19, 2011 Quote everyone please keep buying those big screens, DVRs, cable boxes, computers, cell phone chargers and game boxes - I need a raise next time you have your big screen on, just go to the screen and see how much heat there is - that is your money coming to me :) They're much better than they used to be. Large screen LCDs are much better than my RPTV, or the CRTs before that. (But my plasma...not so good. Better than they were, but still a heater). Computers are immensely better - sandy bridge based machines may idle at a 40-50 watt draw, same as my basic Tivo. But to get big and easy gains, we'd need regulation around the wall warts and their standby draws that can be tens of watts doing nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #127 December 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteFunny thing is, my utility company's rate hikes seem to always stay one step ahead of my attempts to reduce our usage... Yes, and if you reduce your usage to under 1,000 kwh per month, then they hit you with a surcharge for not using enough. Use more than 1,000 kwh, and you get a lower rate per kwh. So we're actually punished for conserving, and rewarded for using a lot. --------------------------------------------- So why do rates work this way? Because there is a basic cost to provide service. It includes all the infrastructure to get to your house, the meter and the admin services to run the system. They determine a minimal purchase that each customer should make to pay for that stuff. By doing this it assures that low usage customers are not subsidized by high use customers. So no you are not punished you are simply paying your fair share of the basic infrastructure costs. The other option is to charge a base fee and give the first block of power for free. In other words, say $100 and the first 1,000 kWh is free. Another option is for customers to just pay for the energy they use and let the subsidies exist.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 130 #128 December 20, 2011 QuoteQuote . . . and a user's electric bill will always be lower. Funny thing is, my utility company's rate hikes seem to always stay one step ahead of my attempts to reduce our useage. I've been switching to CFL's, gotten much better at getting family to only keep lights on as necessary, upgrading to more efficient appliances, using far fewer holiday lights & using them for less time, and so on and so forth. My electric bill has NEVER gone down. Unfortunately the cost of doing business continues to rise and customers are allowed to participate and share those costs. We are a relatively small utility and spent about $1 billion to comply with EPA rules. So yes rates do rise. One way to look at is that you as a consumer have the ultimate option of deciding how much of a product to buy. By using CFLs you are controlling the rate at which your bill rises. However lighting is a very small part of the bill. To make a real difference look at your HVAC, water heating, insulation and infiltration.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 130 #129 December 20, 2011 Quote >Use more than 1,000 kwh, and you get a lower rate per kwh. Interesting. Here in California we have a tiered rate structure - the less you use the cheaper energy becomes. Here are the tiers: Tier 1 - 14¢/kwhr - Up to baseline Tier 2 - 16¢/kwhr - 101% to 130% of baseline Tier 3 - 29¢/kwhr - 131% to 200% of baseline Tier 4 - 31¢/kwhr - Above 200% of baseline So use more than 200% of average and you pay WAY more per kwhr. Use less than average and you pay very little. Utility rates are the ultimate consumer marketing experiment. They are designed and changed to encourage behavior. Different utilities have different business objectives. They design rates to accomplish those goals. And then there is CA. In general we disagree with most of what they do but it is interesting to watch. In SC we charge about $9 as a base charge then 11 cents per kWh with a 1 cent up-tier in the summer and a 1 cent down-tier in the winter after the first 800 kWh. The change in cost is designed to emulate the change in incremental generation cost. In the southeast residential rates are in the range of 11 cents vs. CA at 14 cents and up. We've decided that building, owning and managing generation is a good idea. Between TN, NC, SC and Georgia there is a fairly high % of nuclear generation. We're building more and closing old coal plants. Nuclear is a non-emitting source (CO2). The greenhouse gas crowd is having trouble trying to determine how to not like this approach Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #130 December 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteholiday lights Aha! War on Christmas! Holy Shit! I've gotten too much exposure to generic holiday terminology." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #131 December 20, 2011 >Utility rates are the ultimate consumer marketing experiment. They are designed and >changed to encourage behavior. Different utilities have different business objectives. >They design rates to accomplish those goals. And then there is CA. Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #132 December 21, 2011 Quote Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Once we all have them, it will quickly follow, with the promise that it will be good for us, but of course with a different result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #133 December 21, 2011 >It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #134 December 21, 2011 Quote>It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters While TOD or TOU metere can check and correct for power factor most utilities do not have the tarrifs in place to do that kind of billing But is it coming SMART meters have a different intend but, they can adjust for power factor but they usually do not at this time"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #135 December 21, 2011 QuoteQuote Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Once we all have them, it will quickly follow, with the promise that it will be good for us, but of course with a different result. I got involved, some years ago, with a very smart electrician who was talking his customers into use certain kinks of florescent tube lighting in new building construction (Very large buildings) The transformers in these lights altered the power factor to a point where in some cases lighting loads where being billed out for much less energy than they used This is because inductive load caused the voltage wave form and the current wave form to separate (not at unity) Simple watt hour meters cannot correct for this so in the end, the customer uses more energy than they are billed for. Demand or power meters can correct for this or, the customers will have their power factor checked (by the utility) and be forced to install capacitance or pay a penalty And of course I know that demand billing and power factor penalties are two different things. I am just saying that some of the newer demand meters can correct or adjust for power factor"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #136 December 21, 2011 >Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters. Agreed. Smart meters are designed as TOU meters (indeed SDG+E uses the terms interchangeably) although the customer does not have to be billed according to a TOU tariff. That's up to each utility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #137 December 21, 2011 Quote>Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters. Agreed. Smart meters are designed as TOU meters (indeed SDG+E uses the terms interchangeably) although the customer does not have to be billed according to a TOU tariff. That's up to each utility. Agreed Although, as more and more non-resistive type load is introduced utilities will be moving for that kind of billing once the meters are in place IMO"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 130 #138 December 22, 2011 Quote>It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. One real purpose of the meters is "data acquisition", we know more about your lifestyle than you would believe. The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts).Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #139 December 22, 2011 >The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, >direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts). We've got that now. Here in San Diego you can get cheaper power if you sign up for SDG+E's load shedding program. In that program, some users are disconnected during stage 2 emergencies. (My company participates in that; we have our own generators and they give us enough notice to switch over to backup.) They are planning to extend that to residential loads where you can sign up for load shedding of specific loads (generally A/C compressors and hot water heaters.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 130 #140 December 22, 2011 Quote>The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, >direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts). We've got that now. Here in San Diego you can get cheaper power if you sign up for SDG+E's load shedding program. In that program, some users are disconnected during stage 2 emergencies. (My company participates in that; we have our own generators and they give us enough notice to switch over to backup.) They are planning to extend that to residential loads where you can sign up for load shedding of specific loads (generally A/C compressors and hot water heaters.) yes fairly common, the load control I'm speaking of is when the utility needs to manage overall system demand, demand in certain areas or voltage, they can blackout certain circuits based on load and priority, the smart meters give us all the info we need to make real time decisions - no more guessing, best advice is buy a house near a hospital and make sure it is on the same circuit or substation breaker another issue being discussed is who owns the data, there are marketers that want to buy that data, they would then know what households to target market for consumer productsGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #141 December 22, 2011 Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #142 December 22, 2011 QuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kd5xb 1 #143 December 24, 2011 I've always been a "gadget guy". I like gadgets. I could give you examples -- like the Sentinel I bought and jumped with along about 1979, or the Safety Flyer I bought and had installed at the same time. Or other parts of my life, where I use old Vibroplex "bugs" to operate Morse Code on ham radio. So -- after reading this thread, I went out and bought one, $12 LED "light bulb". Not a very good one, I'm sure, but enough to try out for a while. See at http://www.lowes.com/pd_338802-75774-LA19DM/LED_0__?productId=3341246&Ntt=led+light+bulb+40+watt&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dled%2Blight%2Bbulb%2B40%2Bwatt&facetInfo= Just for interest' sake...I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #144 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #145 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS. Well, you went through the trouble of putting GW signing it in bold, and given your posting history, I doubt that it was to praise GW for a good job - that is, of course, unless the end times really ARE upon us. IOW, the lame attempt to explain away the blameshift is singularly unconvincing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #146 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS. Well, you went through the trouble of putting GW signing it in bold, and given your posting history, I doubt that it was to praise GW for a good job - that is, of course, unless the end times really ARE upon us. IOW, the lame attempt to explain away the blameshift is singularly unconvincing. GW did at least 2 good things in his 8 years in office. Nice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. Personally I wouldn't have banned incandescents, just taxed them heavily. Then those that really want them can still buy them and at the same time help defray the damage they cause.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #147 December 24, 2011 QuoteNice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. I decided to use your *STERLING* example of how to detect nutters over the internet. Unfortunately, again, your posting history puts the lie to your statement.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #148 December 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteNice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. I decided to use your *STERLING* example of how to detect nutters over the internet. Unfortunately, again, your posting history puts the lie to your statement. Why are you so defensive about legislation signed by GWB? Embarrassed by it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #149 December 25, 2011 QuoteSo -- after reading this thread, I went out and bought one, $12 LED "light bulb". Not a very good one, I'm sure, but enough to try out for a while. See at http://www.lowes.com/pd_338802-75774-LA19DM/LED_0__?productId=3341246&Ntt=led+light+bulb+40+watt&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dled%2Blight%2Bbulb%2B40%2Bwatt&facetInfo=This one is okay for downlights or halogen-replacements, or when you need to cast light in a specific direction, but I don't like these types for floor lamps and desk lamps. On this model, the heatsink generates an uncomfortable shadow below the base of the bulb. If you were happy with CFL and needed semi-directional light, this $12 bulb is now probably sufficient quality to become preferable over CFL, because your bulb is dimmable. Your bulb proves that LED bulbs don't have to cost $50 or $100 to be superior to CFL, and prices are still falling. I prefer the LED bulbs that shine omnidirectionally including the ability to light up the base. The Philips one I have is omnidirectional (AmbientLED A19, $30) and simulates the incandescent look so well, it's imperceptible to me (I can usually tell when light look "CFL" or "LED" style -- the white light looks different -- but this is the first LED bulb that tricked me into thinking it was incandescent until I saw the weird bulb shape!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kd5xb 1 #150 December 25, 2011 I don't care for CFL's -- I've had them fail much quicker than incans, I've got headaches from the color or maybe the flicker, and some of them have actually caused me grief with RFI when I'm trying to operate on 20 meters! I bought this particular LED light because it was cheap enough that I didn't cry, and I wanted to see how it was. It's installed in our hallway, where the fixture is very close to the ceiling, so the light being directed upward is reflected off the white ceiling and makes a fairly nice effect. My only concern, at the moment, is heat buildup inside the glass globe. I'm saving the receipt just in case it dies early.I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. 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billeisele 130 #128 December 20, 2011 QuoteQuote . . . and a user's electric bill will always be lower. Funny thing is, my utility company's rate hikes seem to always stay one step ahead of my attempts to reduce our useage. I've been switching to CFL's, gotten much better at getting family to only keep lights on as necessary, upgrading to more efficient appliances, using far fewer holiday lights & using them for less time, and so on and so forth. My electric bill has NEVER gone down. Unfortunately the cost of doing business continues to rise and customers are allowed to participate and share those costs. We are a relatively small utility and spent about $1 billion to comply with EPA rules. So yes rates do rise. One way to look at is that you as a consumer have the ultimate option of deciding how much of a product to buy. By using CFLs you are controlling the rate at which your bill rises. However lighting is a very small part of the bill. To make a real difference look at your HVAC, water heating, insulation and infiltration.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #129 December 20, 2011 Quote >Use more than 1,000 kwh, and you get a lower rate per kwh. Interesting. Here in California we have a tiered rate structure - the less you use the cheaper energy becomes. Here are the tiers: Tier 1 - 14¢/kwhr - Up to baseline Tier 2 - 16¢/kwhr - 101% to 130% of baseline Tier 3 - 29¢/kwhr - 131% to 200% of baseline Tier 4 - 31¢/kwhr - Above 200% of baseline So use more than 200% of average and you pay WAY more per kwhr. Use less than average and you pay very little. Utility rates are the ultimate consumer marketing experiment. They are designed and changed to encourage behavior. Different utilities have different business objectives. They design rates to accomplish those goals. And then there is CA. In general we disagree with most of what they do but it is interesting to watch. In SC we charge about $9 as a base charge then 11 cents per kWh with a 1 cent up-tier in the summer and a 1 cent down-tier in the winter after the first 800 kWh. The change in cost is designed to emulate the change in incremental generation cost. In the southeast residential rates are in the range of 11 cents vs. CA at 14 cents and up. We've decided that building, owning and managing generation is a good idea. Between TN, NC, SC and Georgia there is a fairly high % of nuclear generation. We're building more and closing old coal plants. Nuclear is a non-emitting source (CO2). The greenhouse gas crowd is having trouble trying to determine how to not like this approach Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #130 December 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteholiday lights Aha! War on Christmas! Holy Shit! I've gotten too much exposure to generic holiday terminology." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #131 December 20, 2011 >Utility rates are the ultimate consumer marketing experiment. They are designed and >changed to encourage behavior. Different utilities have different business objectives. >They design rates to accomplish those goals. And then there is CA. Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #132 December 21, 2011 Quote Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Once we all have them, it will quickly follow, with the promise that it will be good for us, but of course with a different result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #133 December 21, 2011 >It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #134 December 21, 2011 Quote>It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters While TOD or TOU metere can check and correct for power factor most utilities do not have the tarrifs in place to do that kind of billing But is it coming SMART meters have a different intend but, they can adjust for power factor but they usually do not at this time"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #135 December 21, 2011 QuoteQuote Definitely true. California utilities place a high value on not having to build new conventional generation facilities - hence a rate structure that encourages reduction of usage. Most utilities place value on moving their "peaks" so that people use power during low demand times. Hence they have time-of-use pricing for heavy users that provide cheaper off-peak power. Other utilities want to be able to sell at least X gigawatt-hours a month, and thus have a minimum usage charge (i.e. pay X a month and get 1000 kilowatt hours a month, with no discount if you don't use them all.) It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Once we all have them, it will quickly follow, with the promise that it will be good for us, but of course with a different result. I got involved, some years ago, with a very smart electrician who was talking his customers into use certain kinks of florescent tube lighting in new building construction (Very large buildings) The transformers in these lights altered the power factor to a point where in some cases lighting loads where being billed out for much less energy than they used This is because inductive load caused the voltage wave form and the current wave form to separate (not at unity) Simple watt hour meters cannot correct for this so in the end, the customer uses more energy than they are billed for. Demand or power meters can correct for this or, the customers will have their power factor checked (by the utility) and be forced to install capacitance or pay a penalty And of course I know that demand billing and power factor penalties are two different things. I am just saying that some of the newer demand meters can correct or adjust for power factor"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #136 December 21, 2011 >Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters. Agreed. Smart meters are designed as TOU meters (indeed SDG+E uses the terms interchangeably) although the customer does not have to be billed according to a TOU tariff. That's up to each utility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #137 December 21, 2011 Quote>Time of use or time of day billing meteres are not the same a demand or power usage meters. Agreed. Smart meters are designed as TOU meters (indeed SDG+E uses the terms interchangeably) although the customer does not have to be billed according to a TOU tariff. That's up to each utility. Agreed Although, as more and more non-resistive type load is introduced utilities will be moving for that kind of billing once the meters are in place IMO"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #138 December 22, 2011 Quote>It's clear that the point of the unpopular (to hypochondriacs) Smart Meters >being installed by PG&E is to allow for demand pricing of power. Given that SDG+E calls them "TOU meters" (time-of-use) I think that's not only clear but unquestionable. One real purpose of the meters is "data acquisition", we know more about your lifestyle than you would believe. The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts).Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #139 December 22, 2011 >The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, >direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts). We've got that now. Here in San Diego you can get cheaper power if you sign up for SDG+E's load shedding program. In that program, some users are disconnected during stage 2 emergencies. (My company participates in that; we have our own generators and they give us enough notice to switch over to backup.) They are planning to extend that to residential loads where you can sign up for load shedding of specific loads (generally A/C compressors and hot water heaters.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #140 December 22, 2011 Quote>The future is: customized rate structures, combo rates with peak demand pricing, >direct marketing, remote disconnect/reconnect, and load control (rolling brownouts). We've got that now. Here in San Diego you can get cheaper power if you sign up for SDG+E's load shedding program. In that program, some users are disconnected during stage 2 emergencies. (My company participates in that; we have our own generators and they give us enough notice to switch over to backup.) They are planning to extend that to residential loads where you can sign up for load shedding of specific loads (generally A/C compressors and hot water heaters.) yes fairly common, the load control I'm speaking of is when the utility needs to manage overall system demand, demand in certain areas or voltage, they can blackout certain circuits based on load and priority, the smart meters give us all the info we need to make real time decisions - no more guessing, best advice is buy a house near a hospital and make sure it is on the same circuit or substation breaker another issue being discussed is who owns the data, there are marketers that want to buy that data, they would then know what households to target market for consumer productsGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #141 December 22, 2011 Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #142 December 22, 2011 QuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #143 December 24, 2011 I've always been a "gadget guy". I like gadgets. I could give you examples -- like the Sentinel I bought and jumped with along about 1979, or the Safety Flyer I bought and had installed at the same time. Or other parts of my life, where I use old Vibroplex "bugs" to operate Morse Code on ham radio. So -- after reading this thread, I went out and bought one, $12 LED "light bulb". Not a very good one, I'm sure, but enough to try out for a while. See at http://www.lowes.com/pd_338802-75774-LA19DM/LED_0__?productId=3341246&Ntt=led+light+bulb+40+watt&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dled%2Blight%2Bbulb%2B40%2Bwatt&facetInfo= Just for interest' sake...I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #144 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #145 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS. Well, you went through the trouble of putting GW signing it in bold, and given your posting history, I doubt that it was to praise GW for a good job - that is, of course, unless the end times really ARE upon us. IOW, the lame attempt to explain away the blameshift is singularly unconvincing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #146 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteEnergy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Passed the House on January 18, 2007 (264 - 163) Passed the Senate on June 21, 2007 (65 - 27) Reported by the joint conference committee on December 6, 2007; agreed to by the Senate on December 13, 2007 (86 - 8) and by the House on December 18, 2007 (314 - 100) Signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 19, 2007 Must have missed where he blamed it on Obama - care to point that out for us? Care to point out where I claimed he did? You really have a bad case of ODS. Well, you went through the trouble of putting GW signing it in bold, and given your posting history, I doubt that it was to praise GW for a good job - that is, of course, unless the end times really ARE upon us. IOW, the lame attempt to explain away the blameshift is singularly unconvincing. GW did at least 2 good things in his 8 years in office. Nice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. Personally I wouldn't have banned incandescents, just taxed them heavily. Then those that really want them can still buy them and at the same time help defray the damage they cause.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #147 December 24, 2011 QuoteNice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. I decided to use your *STERLING* example of how to detect nutters over the internet. Unfortunately, again, your posting history puts the lie to your statement.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #148 December 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteNice to see how your ODS has led to mindreading abilities now. I decided to use your *STERLING* example of how to detect nutters over the internet. Unfortunately, again, your posting history puts the lie to your statement. Why are you so defensive about legislation signed by GWB? Embarrassed by it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #149 December 25, 2011 QuoteSo -- after reading this thread, I went out and bought one, $12 LED "light bulb". Not a very good one, I'm sure, but enough to try out for a while. See at http://www.lowes.com/pd_338802-75774-LA19DM/LED_0__?productId=3341246&Ntt=led+light+bulb+40+watt&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dled%2Blight%2Bbulb%2B40%2Bwatt&facetInfo=This one is okay for downlights or halogen-replacements, or when you need to cast light in a specific direction, but I don't like these types for floor lamps and desk lamps. On this model, the heatsink generates an uncomfortable shadow below the base of the bulb. If you were happy with CFL and needed semi-directional light, this $12 bulb is now probably sufficient quality to become preferable over CFL, because your bulb is dimmable. Your bulb proves that LED bulbs don't have to cost $50 or $100 to be superior to CFL, and prices are still falling. I prefer the LED bulbs that shine omnidirectionally including the ability to light up the base. The Philips one I have is omnidirectional (AmbientLED A19, $30) and simulates the incandescent look so well, it's imperceptible to me (I can usually tell when light look "CFL" or "LED" style -- the white light looks different -- but this is the first LED bulb that tricked me into thinking it was incandescent until I saw the weird bulb shape!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #150 December 25, 2011 I don't care for CFL's -- I've had them fail much quicker than incans, I've got headaches from the color or maybe the flicker, and some of them have actually caused me grief with RFI when I'm trying to operate on 20 meters! I bought this particular LED light because it was cheap enough that I didn't cry, and I wanted to see how it was. It's installed in our hallway, where the fixture is very close to the ceiling, so the light being directed upward is reflected off the white ceiling and makes a fairly nice effect. My only concern, at the moment, is heat buildup inside the glass globe. I'm saving the receipt just in case it dies early.I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
