Barack Obama Middle East speech: Palestinian state should be based on 1967 borders

[dreamdancer 0]

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Where's "Palestine"?

the consensus is that palestine is where the 1967 borders used to be...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I'm completely for giving Palestine the 1967 borders.

Do you honestly think that will be the end of it? I don't. I think that since Hamas is supported by Iran and their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map, that they will simply use the gain of the land as a way to further shrink Israel and allow them to more effectively continue their campaign of terrorists attacks.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/950500.htm

once the palestinians have a viable state they have no further need of iran...

Name just one instance where the Palistinian leadership has followed through on an agreed upon concession with israel. Just one.

name one concession given by israel to the palestinians - how are those illegal settlements going?

Well, lets see, right off the top of my head there's Ehud Barak’s 2000 peace offer or Ehud Olmert’s 2008 offer, both of which offered over 90% of Judea and Samaria and parts of Jerusalem to the PA.

[dreamdancer 0]

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I'm completely for giving Palestine the 1967 borders.

Do you honestly think that will be the end of it? I don't. I think that since Hamas is supported by Iran and their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map, that they will simply use the gain of the land as a way to further shrink Israel and allow them to more effectively continue their campaign of terrorists attacks.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/950500.htm

once the palestinians have a viable state they have no further need of iran...

Name just one instance where the Palistinian leadership has followed through on an agreed upon concession with israel. Just one.

name one concession given by israel to the palestinians - how are those illegal settlements going?

Well, lets see, right off the top of my head there's Ehud Barak’s 2000 peace offer or Ehud Olmert’s 2008 offer, both of which offered over 90% of Judea and Samaria and parts of Jerusalem to the PA.

but not a return to the 1967 borders as the rest of the world wants? so no concession then...

(judea and samaria are old names)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Meso 38]

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Do you honestly think that will be the end of it? I don't. I think that since Hamas is supported by Iran and their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map, that they will simply use the gain of the land as a way to further shrink Israel and allow them to more effectively continue their campaign of terrorists attacks.

You mention the 'shrinking of Israel' - Israel has been expanding by the forced decline of the so-called Palestinian territories, yet no one saw this as a 'shrinking of Palestine" Fact of the matter is that through the last century Israel has continued to widen it's occupied areas and Palestinians have been forced to occupy smaller and smaller areas.

You seem to be concerned of Israel being 'wiped of the map', but yet that's what's been happening to the Palestinians.

If anything, I see it more diplomatically wise to give Palestine some borders in an agreement, though making sure it's a sufficient area. Then should they act in violence in an attempt to further expand, then at least any defence on Israel's part would be warranted.

Right now they're given nothing and when they try to get anything (What they had before) they're punished. I'm not saying it will solve anything, but I see it as fair and better than just refusing.

[muff528 3]

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Where's "Palestine"?

the consensus is that palestine is where the 1967 borders used to be...

So the "consensus" is that once the Palestinians are "returned" to Golan, WB and Gaza (and the Israelis abandon "illegal" settlements) then peace will "return" to the region? BTW- the Palestinians have never needed Iran. But Iran, Syria, etc...etc. DO need the Palestinians.

(edit for punct.)

[Gravitymaster 0]

Sorry, but the Palistinians have never negotiated in good faith. Every concession including pulling out of Gaza in 2005 has been met with nothing but continued rocket attacks. I seriously doubt that anyone in Israel doesn't want peace but when every attempt is met with continued violence it becomes a matter of putting some distance between yourself and your stated enemy. The problem is that Israel believes Iran when they state their goal is to wipe Israel off the map.

[Guest]

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(it's the same old story of Arabs and despotism - they really don't know any other way to think or live).

your racism is showing...

No, my presence in the Middle East and direct observation are showing.

Please name one Arab democracy (the puppet government of Iraq doesn't count, because it is not indigenous [imo]). Go ahead, I'll wait.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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Where's "Palestine"?

the consensus is that palestine is where the 1967 borders used to be...

+1

Why are the Israelis so terrified of the UN establishing a Palestinian state (ala Israel in 1948)? Can it be that it would legitimize Palestinian claims on the Occupied Territories?

Or is it simpler - JERUSALEM?

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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I'm completely for giving Palestine the 1967 borders.

Both sides are instigators, both sides claim they're right and the other is wrong and both feel as though they deserve the land. Except the difference is Israel already has a strong state and they seem to be controlled by greed.

And Israel has been able to take so much land from the Palestinians quite easily, by being America's lap dog.

Having Jewish family which I've discussed this matter with - I've seen some of the mentalities that go along with it. "Give it, it's ours - God gave it to us...", along with lack of empathy for any attack that injures Palestinians. That's not to say it's not the same on both sides, I'm sure the views are quite similar on the Palestinian side. The difference is Israel gets patted on the back by larger first world countries for such thinking. Because naturally, if God said it was their land - then it is, chosen people and everything.

Do I have a solution that will solve the problem? No. But I get annoyed with almost everyone hopping on the "I love Israel" bandwagon. I don't know whether it's holocaust guilt or what, but it seems to many that Israel can do no wrong. All I know is that allowing them to take up any land they desire is foolish. And yet when you look at how Palestine has shrunk over the past 60 years, you can see that Israel has done a charming job at being the 'Alpha dog' of the situation. Yet instead people seem to see them as the under dog.

As I said though, both Israel and Palestine have their problems. But to deny Palestinian borders because you're scared of them or because God says otherwise, both seem like crap.

I don't think either side desires peace, Israel seems to think they're entitled to whatever they want and will only find peace when they've made it happen. While I see Palestinians as people who are willing to fight so that they don't get trampled on by results of greed.

I don't fully support either of their mentalities. But the way I've always seen it is that Israel has more power and has used that power to get what they want, while people turn a blind eye because they perceive all Palestinians as evil. And when Palestinians try to hold on to what little they have it's a "Palestinians are so evil!!", yet nobody cries fowl when Israel destroys Palestinian homes.

It's one of those things where people by default support Israel without even knowing the situation. There's probably millions of people who will say Israel is right, simply because Israel lays in bed with the U.S. I bet if the roles were reversed and the Palestinians were the ones held in the safety nets of first world countries, Israel would either have already been bombed or the general thinking would be "Don't let those bullies take what you deserve, fight back..."

/rant

Though I will say that this is based on what I have seen and read. It's an issue I'm willing to listen to. And perhaps change my thinking on, if reliable and logical information should show that Israel should be entitled to everything they claim they are. And the reasons why Palestine should be the enemy and why their presence there should not be accepted and instead why support should be given to oppressing them.

Well put indeed.

However, nothing in the Middle East is ever easy, and I believe you are grossly oversimplifying things; e.g., Israel (the "Little Satan") gets away with it because of the USA (the "Great Satan"), and that Israel gets a pass on things. Not so - Israel gets bashed in the UN all the time, and everyone knows that.

The Arab world also bears responsibility. The wealthy Gulf states have pledged huge amounts of aid to Palestine, but have never delivered. Guess who's funding the Palestinian Authority? It isn't the fucking Arabs.

George Mitchell threw in the towel a few days ago; he's just the latest in a long line of diplomats who have quit in frustration.

I will be taking another trip to the area shortly (that's the plan, anyway. Work often gets in the way of things), and will be visiting the West Bank this time; I'll report on the situation post-Obama speech. Should be interesting.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[airdvr 210]

3 pages of drivel from both sides of the problem. Bottom line is there will never be peace in the ME. I wish I woud live long enough to see the oil run out and with it their importance on the world stage.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[muff528 3]

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3 pages of drivel from both sides of the problem. Bottom line is there will never be peace in the ME. I wish I woud live long enough to see the oil run out and with it their importance on the world stage.

BINGO!! ...and "peace" is not the goal anyway. The only "path to peace" (as far as it relates to Israel and the Jews) in the ME was passed by when the Jews did not follow Gandhi's advice and acquiesce to the Holocaust. After Israel and the Jews are gone the various Islamic factions in the Middle East can get back to their usual internal squabbles, stonings and head removals.

[deltron80 0]

Everyone is missing the point here...even Obama who is usually a smart guy.

The 2 state solution will never work. It must be one state with all citizens having equal rights. I know, crazy concept right?

You can't form a state around a religion and have it stand the test of time. In Israel, if you're not Jewish you are a second class citizen.

It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

Regardless of how long it takes, the end result will have to be one state or they will simply destroy each other.

The Israeli people are their own worst enemy.

[wsd 0]

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Even if the Israelis agreed to that.

i agree that it is very unlikely the israelis will give peace a chance...

You really don't know much about this do you?

a lot more than you matey...

I highly doubt that, If you have the knowledge you say you possess you would not be posting such crap.

Show a little eagerness to learn, you truly don't have a clue on this.

[rehmwa 2]

What if I just want us to stay out of their business now?

Obama was arrogant in his proposal and his delivery was like he thought he could dictate to those groups how they should live. It was nasty.

AND, in a time when our budget is out of control - he announces he wants to give away a shitload of money to the region. All just to give himself a little bit of air time and to stroke his own ego. How can someone be so consistently wrong so much of the time? He just burned what little good will he earned by letting the Seals do their job a couple weeks ago.

STOP SPENDING! Every time he opens his mouth, a billion dollars flies out of it and land on the fire.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[muff528 3]

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Everyone is missing the point here...even Obama who is usually a smart guy.

The 2 state solution will never work. It must be one state with all citizens having equal rights. I know, crazy concept right?

You can't form a state around a religion and have it stand the test of time. In Israel, if you're not Jewish you are a second class citizen.

It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

Regardless of how long it takes, the end result will have to be one state or they will simply destroy each other.

The Israeli people are their own worst enemy.

You are absolutely right in that a "single-state solution" with a government that represents all citizens is the only option. What you don't seem to get is that the only solution that will be accepted/allowed by the rest of the Islamic world is a one-state solution that subjugates non-muslims to an Islamic state government that treats them as 2nd-class citizens (they will get to keep their heads as long as they pay their protection money and obey the modesty police). evidence: all other muslim countries.

[wsd 0]

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Their tune has not changed at all since the 1930's

neither have you

Don't act like an asshole to Jeanne, she is far smarter than you will ever hope to be,

[deltron80 0]

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Everyone is missing the point here...even Obama who is usually a smart guy.

The 2 state solution will never work. It must be one state with all citizens having equal rights. I know, crazy concept right?

You can't form a state around a religion and have it stand the test of time. In Israel, if you're not Jewish you are a second class citizen.

It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

Regardless of how long it takes, the end result will have to be one state or they will simply destroy each other.

The Israeli people are their own worst enemy.

You are absolutely right in that a "single-state solution" with a government that represents all citizens is the only option. What you don't seem to get is that the only solution that will be accepted/allowed by the rest of the Islamic world is a one-state solution that subjugates non-muslims to an Islamic state government that treats them as 2nd-class citizens (they will get to keep their heads as long as they pay their protection money and obey the modesty police). evidence: all other muslim countries.

"The rest of the Islamic world" is not really relevant to the discussion. The people of the territory of Israel/Palestine will eventually rise up and demand their freedom and I wouldn't want to be one of the people that was standing in their way.

[muff528 3]

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Everyone is missing the point here...even Obama who is usually a smart guy.

The 2 state solution will never work. It must be one state with all citizens having equal rights. I know, crazy concept right?

You can't form a state around a religion and have it stand the test of time. In Israel, if you're not Jewish you are a second class citizen.

It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

Regardless of how long it takes, the end result will have to be one state or they will simply destroy each other.

The Israeli people are their own worst enemy.

You are absolutely right in that a "single-state solution" with a government that represents all citizens is the only option. What you don't seem to get is that the only solution that will be accepted/allowed by the rest of the Islamic world is a one-state solution that subjugates non-muslims to an Islamic state government that treats them as 2nd-class citizens (they will get to keep their heads as long as they pay their protection money and obey the modesty police). evidence: all other muslim countries.

"The rest of the Islamic world" is not really relevant to the discussion. The people of the territory of Israel/Palestine will eventually rise up and demand their freedom and I wouldn't want to be one of the people that was standing in their way.

"The rest of the Islamic world" is the reason we are even talking about pre-1967 borders. The"occupied territories" are pre-1967 parts of Syria, Jordan and Egypt (not the mythical "Palestine") and would still be that way if not for the aggressive military buildup against Israel leading up to the 6-day war. also ...how does Obama propose to join together the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip into a single, contiguous country which will separate Israel from Syria, Jordan and Egypt? Where will that land come from?

[Darius11 12]

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and we know that israel has the intention of destroying palestine even if they haven't declared so (why should they as you say).

Nope, you have an ASSumption of this. But you have no actual proof. That's the difference between the two.

And you have proff if you have eyes. no ones fault you keep looking the other way.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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I'm completely for giving Palestine the 1967 borders.

Both sides are instigators, both sides claim they're right and the other is wrong and both feel as though they deserve the land. Except the difference is Israel already has a strong state and they seem to be controlled by greed.

And Israel has been able to take so much land from the Palestinians quite easily, by being America's lap dog.

Having Jewish family which I've discussed this matter with - I've seen some of the mentalities that go along with it. "Give it, it's ours - God gave it to us...", along with lack of empathy for any attack that injures Palestinians. That's not to say it's not the same on both sides, I'm sure the views are quite similar on the Palestinian side. The difference is Israel gets patted on the back by larger first world countries for such thinking. Because naturally, if God said it was their land - then it is, chosen people and everything.

Do I have a solution that will solve the problem? No. But I get annoyed with almost everyone hopping on the "I love Israel" bandwagon. I don't know whether it's holocaust guilt or what, but it seems to many that Israel can do no wrong. All I know is that allowing them to take up any land they desire is foolish. And yet when you look at how Palestine has shrunk over the past 60 years, you can see that Israel has done a charming job at being the 'Alpha dog' of the situation. Yet instead people seem to see them as the under dog.

As I said though, both Israel and Palestine have their problems. But to deny Palestinian borders because you're scared of them or because God says otherwise, both seem like crap.

I don't think either side desires peace, Israel seems to think they're entitled to whatever they want and will only find peace when they've made it happen. While I see Palestinians as people who are willing to fight so that they don't get trampled on by results of greed.

I don't fully support either of their mentalities. But the way I've always seen it is that Israel has more power and has used that power to get what they want, while people turn a blind eye because they perceive all Palestinians as evil. And when Palestinians try to hold on to what little they have it's a "Palestinians are so evil!!", yet nobody cries fowl when Israel destroys Palestinian homes.

It's one of those things where people by default support Israel without even knowing the situation. There's probably millions of people who will say Israel is right, simply because Israel lays in bed with the U.S. I bet if the roles were reversed and the Palestinians were the ones held in the safety nets of first world countries, Israel would either have already been bombed or the general thinking would be "Don't let those bullies take what you deserve, fight back..."

/rant

Though I will say that this is based on what I have seen and read. It's an issue I'm willing to listen to. And perhaps change my thinking on, if reliable and logical information should show that Israel should be entitled to everything they claim they are. And the reasons why Palestine should be the enemy and why their presence there should not be accepted and instead why support should be given to oppressing them.

Excellent post.
Thanks.

[grimmie 186]

I have a theory on terrorism and terrorists, such as Hamas.
All of the terror groups around the world get some type of funding to fight the good fight for the cause. It doesn't matter if it is in Belfast, the West Bank, Iraq, Afghanistan, America, Timor, etc. Mayhem equals big dollars and no real job.
I think a lot of these groups keep fighting to keep the money flowing. Sure, they fight for their "ideals", but when justice of some type can be theirs, they always seem to keep the carnage going. Thus making "Peace Accords" impossible.
War is big business. Even for the little guys.
And now off on a different tangent. Erik Prince is starting his own UAE private army. Where is this going to lead? I suppose that's an entire new thread.

Come on Nerdgirl. Get back in here! We need ya!

[Darius11 12]

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Are you sure you are not confusing the 1973 Yom Kippur War with the Six Day War of 1967? It is my impression that Israel started the 1967 War with their preemptive air strikes on Egypt, Jordan and Syria to take out the Arab air forces followed by Israeli land attacks which gave Israel their new territory. Egypt and Syria started the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

The key word there is preemptive
Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt after the Egyptians moved forces into the Sinai, kicked out the UN observers and blockaded Israel's access to the red sea, all of which are acts of war.
Syria had a military pack with Egypt and joined the war and Jordan joined based on the Egyptian lies that Israel was about to be destroyed (Israel urged king Hussain to stay out of it)

Yes there was an escalation of forces on the boarders. That is not an act of war. However actually attacking the people who our on there side of the boarder IS.

That’s the issue with this recurring Israeli Palestinian debates. The Israeli supporters have no standard.
You want to pick and choose which international laws you like and even in that you are not consistent. Simply they want to do what they want and will use wherever justification they can put together at the time.


The term “preemptive strike” is an act of war.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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AND, in a time when our budget is out of control - he announces he wants to give away a shitload of money to the region.

We already do on an annual basis and have been for decades. And don't forget that the cost of the Iraq war. Israel was as much a factor in the decision to invade Iraq as oil was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

I don't have a problem throwing money (effectively) at this problem if it means that in the long run we'll save money. By helping to secure a solution to this conflict we will end up fighting fewer wars and we will have taken off the table one of al qaeda's key motivational concerns.

[Darius11 12]

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I have a theory on terrorism and terrorists, such as Hamas.
All of the terror groups around the world get some type of funding to fight the good fight for the cause. It doesn't matter if it is in Belfast, the West Bank, Iraq, Afghanistan, America, Timor, etc. Mayhem equals big dollars and no real job.
I think a lot of these groups keep fighting to keep the money flowing. Sure, they fight for their "ideals", but when justice of some type can be theirs, they always seem to keep the carnage going. Thus making "Peace Accords" impossible.
War is big business. Even for the little guys.
And now off on a different tangent. Erik Prince is starting his own UAE private army. Where is this going to lead? I suppose that's an entire new thread.

Come on Nerdgirl. Get back in here! We need ya!

You cant lump up “terrorist” groups well you can but then you would be wrong. They are all not fighting for the same thing or the same reason.

In the case of Hamas, there tactics are disgusting and they kill many inocent people. However they are the only ones to actually fight back and they use what is available to them which is not much.


I have a feeling if an American gave his life for the country he would be viewed as a hero, I can understand how someone in Hamas can be viewed as such by a Palestinian who is living a desperate life.

There fight is about land, Religion is how you can motivate people, specilly the poor and hopeless.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Do you honestly think that will be the end of it? I don't. I think that since Hamas is supported by Iran and their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map, that they will simply use the gain of the land as a way to further shrink Israel and allow them to more effectively continue their campaign of terrorists attacks.

You mention the 'shrinking of Israel' - Israel has been expanding by the forced decline of the so-called Palestinian territories, yet no one saw this as a 'shrinking of Palestine" Fact of the matter is that through the last century Israel has continued to widen it's occupied areas and Palestinians have been forced to occupy smaller and smaller areas.

You seem to be concerned of Israel being 'wiped of the map', but yet that's what's been happening to the Palestinians.

If anything, I see it more diplomatically wise to give Palestine some borders in an agreement, though making sure it's a sufficient area. Then should they act in violence in an attempt to further expand, then at least any defence on Israel's part would be warranted.

Right now they're given nothing and when they try to get anything (What they had before) they're punished. I'm not saying it will solve anything, but I see it as fair and better than just refusing.

Great Posts both of them.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain