Barack Obama Middle East speech: Palestinian state should be based on 1967 borders

[jgoose71 0]

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I'm completely for giving Palestine the 1967 borders.

Do you honestly think that will be the end of it? I don't. I think that since Hamas is supported by Iran and their stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map, that they will simply use the gain of the land as a way to further shrink Israel and allow them to more effectively continue their campaign of terrorists attacks.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/950500.htm

once the palestinians have a viable state they have no further need of iran...

The palestinian government is full of corrupt despots. They will do what ever iran pays them to do.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[falxori 0]

I wasn't argueing that Israel didnt shoot first. I just said it had a good reason after it was clear that war was unavoidable as Egypt moved forces into the demilitarized zone and kicked out the un observers.
Striking first was a tactical and not a strategic move like Egypt and Syria did in 1973

Btw by your criteria the Syrian citizens who crossed the border into Israel is also considered an act of war. Right?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[rehmwa 2]

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AND, in a time when our budget is out of control - he announces he wants to give away a shitload of money to the region.

We already do on an annual basis and have been for decades. And don't forget that the cost of the Iraq war. Israel was as much a factor in the decision to invade Iraq as oil was.

ABSOLUTELY - we need to stop a long term bad habit

this is flushing $$$ for no real return at all - they need to stop it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[metalslug 36]

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It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

IMO South Africa is an interesting comparisson here, but not in the way that you are using it.
In SA, the reality is that it was completely possible (not necessarily preferable) to sustain that system for several decades more at least. Much like Israel over Palestine, the SA minority had the military and policing resources to quite easily suppress the 'opposition' indefinitely.
The decision to change came from within the minority themselves, the 1992 Referendum, and is widely believed (among locals) that sport isolation was the main factor in this change of heart.
My point is that different nations have different priorities. I quite believe that a nation like Israel could sustain pretty much anything they wanted to for as long as they choose to, whether that be for better or for worse.

[jgoose71 0]

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(it's the same old story of Arabs and despotism - they really don't know any other way to think or live).

your racism is showing...

No, my presence in the Middle East and direct observation are showing.

Please name one Arab democracy (the puppet government of Iraq doesn't count, because it is not indigenous [imo]). Go ahead, I'll wait.

mh
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Turkey, that was easy.....

But I wouldn't count them. They are more of a mediterainian country than middle eastern......

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[muff528 3]

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(it's the same old story of Arabs and despotism - they really don't know any other way to think or live).

your racism is showing...

No, my presence in the Middle East and direct observation are showing.

Please name one Arab democracy (the puppet government of Iraq doesn't count, because it is not indigenous [imo]). Go ahead, I'll wait.

mh
.

Turkey, that was easy.....

But I wouldn't count them. They are more of a mediterainian country than middle eastern......

Not Arabs, either.

[KidWicked 0]

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Even if the Israelis agreed to that.

i agree that it is very unlikely the israelis will give peace a chance...

You really don't know much about this do you?

a lot more than you matey...

I highly doubt that, If you have the knowledge you say you possess you would not be posting such crap.

Show a little eagerness to learn, you truly don't have a clue on this.

wsd has the tendency to claim superior knowledge on topics, and then not justify that claim. I called him previously on it on another topic, and yet no evidence was forthcoming....

Best to just ignore him.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[SpeedRacer 1]

Fuck it. Lets just move all the Israelis to Texas.

If you think that Texas isn't the Holy Land, ask a Texan.

Speed Racer
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[Amazon 7]

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Fuck it. Lets just move all the Israelis to Texas.

If you think that Texas isn't the Holy Land, ask a Texan.

Hell no...

Move all the A rabs there.... it would be far more intereting.

[marks2065 0]

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Fuck it. Lets just move all the Israelis to Texas.

If you think that Texas isn't the Holy Land, ask a Texan.

Hell no...

Move all the A rabs there.... it would be far more intereting.

there would be alot of dead A rabs

[jgoose71 0]

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(it's the same old story of Arabs and despotism - they really don't know any other way to think or live).

your racism is showing...

No, my presence in the Middle East and direct observation are showing.

Please name one Arab democracy (the puppet government of Iraq doesn't count, because it is not indigenous [imo]). Go ahead, I'll wait.

mh
.

Turkey, that was easy.....

But I wouldn't count them. They are more of a mediterainian country than middle eastern......

Not Arabs, either.

I suppose you are correct, but it is a primarily muslim country. Kind if where I was going with the second part of the post. Thanks for helping me clarify

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[deltron80 0]

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It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

IMO South Africa is an interesting comparisson here, but not in the way that you are using it.
In SA, the reality is that it was completely possible (not necessarily preferable) to sustain that system for several decades more at least. Much like Israel over Palestine, the SA minority had the military and policing resources to quite easily suppress the 'opposition' indefinitely.
The decision to change came from within the minority themselves, the 1992 Referendum, and is widely believed (among locals) that sport isolation was the main factor in this change of heart.
My point is that different nations have different priorities. I quite believe that a nation like Israel could sustain pretty much anything they wanted to for as long as they choose to, whether that be for better or for worse.

Eventually Israel be drowned by a sea of brown people due to birth rates. That's really their biggest fear at the end of the day. That's why they can't give the Arabs any rights. If they do they will be voted out of office in 5 seconds. Tha's called Democracy.

You are witnessing now what eventually happens when people have their rights trampled upon for long enough all over the Middle East. Israel is not immune to this just because they are powerful.

They foolishly keep the Arabs ghettoized instead of allowing them to assimilate (a sad parallel to how they were themselves forced into ghettos for centuries in Europe), but this will only serve to antagonize revolt as it has done over the past few decades.

Israel ought to change their policies and adopt a 'bill of rights' for all its people if they want to see a centennial celebration in 2048.

[chuteless 1]

You are wrong about the UN creating Israel. God gave that land () and much more ) to Abraham and said it would be theirs forever, and so it shall be.

The Israelis marched into those lands and seized them as their own in May 1948. The United Nations voted and accepted Israel as a member nation on May 11th 1949.

The Palestinians dwelt on much of the land, and it was barren sand dunes as far as the eye could see. Israel took over that land which is rightfully theirs, and made it ito a lush green country, capable of growing crops. The only crops the Arabs had was camels.

They will never divide the land as the United States has suggested, for it is Israel's land.

The ten "lost "tribes of Israel for the most part, left those lands to emmigrate to the northern coats of France, Germany, Belgium and the Nordic regions. They then travelled to Ireland, Scotland and England, where they set up shop, but lost their connection to Israel in name only. The throne used by England has been used for centuries, and Christ will sit on that very same throne whyen he returns.

Eventually they ( Manasseh ) sailed the Atlantic Ocean to America,after they fought with their brothers ( Ephriam) and Mannaseh became the United States of America while Ephriam expandded into, and became Canada.

Have you never wondered why the USA and Great Britain give total support for Israel? It is becaue they are brothers. The only people to be known as the JEWS are the tribes of Benjamin and Judah.

The nations that once made up the British Empire are of the tribe of Ephriam and they emmigrated to Canada, India, New Zealand, Australia, and others, but the fact that the British Empire no longer rules them, doesnt hinder them as Israelis....which they all are, although mixed with other races in the 21st century.

[deltron80 0]

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You are wrong about the UN creating Israel. God gave that land () and much more ) to Abraham and said it would be theirs forever, and so it shall be.

The Israelis marched into those lands and seized them as their own in May 1948. The United Nations voted and accepted Israel as a member nation on May 11th 1949.

The Palestinians dwelt on much of the land, and it was barren sand dunes as far as the eye could see. Israel took over that land which is rightfully theirs, and made it ito a lush green country, capable of growing crops. The only crops the Arabs had was camels.

They will never divide the land as the United States has suggested, for it is Israel's land.

The ten "lost "tribes of Israel for the most part, left those lands to emmigrate to the northern coats of France, Germany, Belgium and the Nordic regions. They then travelled to Ireland, Scotland and England, where they set up shop, but lost their connection to Israel in name only. The throne used by England has been used for centuries, and Christ will sit on that very same throne whyen he returns.

Eventually they ( Manasseh ) sailed the Atlantic Ocean to America,after they fought with their brothers ( Ephriam) and Mannaseh became the United States of America while Ephriam expandded into, and became Canada.

Have you never wondered why the USA and Great Britain give total support for Israel? It is becaue they are brothers. The only people to be known as the JEWS are the tribes of Benjamin and Judah.

The nations that once made up the British Empire are of the tribe of Ephriam and they emmigrated to Canada, India, New Zealand, Australia, and others, but the fact that the British Empire no longer rules them, doesnt hinder them as Israelis....which they all are, although mixed with other races in the 21st century.

Wow...nice sugar coated fable you got there! The same excuse was used by Americans who settled the West through mass genocide. "The heathens aren't even using the land," "The land is empty," etc.

The Israeli groups that orginally invaded Palestine were considered wanted terrorists by the West at the time, just like every person who uses violence as a means to an end should rightly be considered.

The only reason the British and Americans eventually sanctioned this terrorism through the Balfour Declaration in 1917 was that they didn't want the Jews around them any more than the Nazis did.

After this, Israelis became a wing of the British Miliary and their violence was institutionalized.

The White Paper sanctioning immigration to Israel didn't happen until 1939 and the Brits & Americans were forced into that one because they didn't want to accept the Jews fleeing mainland Europe at the time.

Try reading more factual books, less Likud propaganda.

[KidWicked 0]

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You are wrong about the UN creating Israel. God gave that land () and much more ) to Abraham and said it would be theirs forever, and so it shall be.

The Israelis marched into those lands and seized them as their own in May 1948. The United Nations voted and accepted Israel as a member nation on May 11th 1949.

The Palestinians dwelt on much of the land, and it was barren sand dunes as far as the eye could see. Israel took over that land which is rightfully theirs, and made it ito a lush green country, capable of growing crops. The only crops the Arabs had was camels.

They will never divide the land as the United States has suggested, for it is Israel's land.

The ten "lost "tribes of Israel for the most part, left those lands to emmigrate to the northern coats of France, Germany, Belgium and the Nordic regions. They then travelled to Ireland, Scotland and England, where they set up shop, but lost their connection to Israel in name only. The throne used by England has been used for centuries, and Christ will sit on that very same throne whyen he returns.

Eventually they ( Manasseh ) sailed the Atlantic Ocean to America,after they fought with their brothers ( Ephriam) and Mannaseh became the United States of America while Ephriam expandded into, and became Canada.

Have you never wondered why the USA and Great Britain give total support for Israel? It is becaue they are brothers. The only people to be known as the JEWS are the tribes of Benjamin and Judah.

The nations that once made up the British Empire are of the tribe of Ephriam and they emmigrated to Canada, India, New Zealand, Australia, and others, but the fact that the British Empire no longer rules them, doesnt hinder them as Israelis....which they all are, although mixed with other races in the 21st century.

Did your dad decode this in the same way that he decoded the James bible?

I've missed your posts because they really are the creme de la creme of batshit crazy.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[idrankwhat 0]

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You are wrong about the UN creating Israel. God gave that land () and much more ) to Abraham and said it would be theirs forever, and so it shall be.

Sounds good to me. Now if we can just get the three Abrahamic religions to quit bickering over who the favorite child is we can end this nonsense.

[kelpdiver 2]

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and we know that israel has the intention of destroying palestine even if they haven't declared so (why should they as you say).

Nope, you have an ASSumption of this. But you have no actual proof. That's the difference between the two.

And you have proff if you have eyes. no ones fault you keep looking the other way.

ah - here we go. An empty statement by Darius is just the sort of evidence DD needed to complete his "argument."

[kelpdiver 2]

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They foolishly keep the Arabs ghettoized instead of allowing them to assimilate (a sad parallel to how they were themselves forced into ghettos for centuries in Europe), but this will only serve to antagonize revolt as it has done over the past few decades.

I don't recall the Jews of pre WWII Europe launching rockets at civilian targets. They were ghettoized for their religion, and as scapegoats by Hitler for Germany's economic woes. Nothing they did actually contributed to this.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That’s the issue with this recurring Israeli Palestinian debates. The Israeli supporters have no standard.
You want to pick and choose which international laws you like and even in that you are not consistent. Simply they want to do what they want and will use wherever justification they can put together at the time.

You make this allegation all the time, yet refuse to admit your similar tendencies.

As I asked DD - how can you ignore their blockade in 1967, yet castigate the Israelis for doing it last year?

[deltron80 0]

The natural conclusion of what Israel will become is as inevitable as the continental US and its manifest destiny:

Israel will eventually be a single, unified state encompassing all of the occupied territories (Golan Heights, West Bank, & Gaza Strip). They will likely also take over most of Jordan too. These are just British lines drawn on a map..they mean nothing.

Whether they will grant their population rights or opt for genocide remains to be seen...

Something secular (a state) cannot be based on a religion.

[Guest]

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The natural conclusion of what Israel will become is as inevitable as the continental US and its manifest destiny:

Israel will eventually be a single, unified state encompassing all of the occupied territories (Golan Heights, West Bank, & Gaza Strip). They will likely also take over most of Jordan too. These are just British lines drawn on a map..they mean nothing.

Whether they will grant their population rights or opt for genocide remains to be seen...

Something secular (a state) cannot be based on a religion.

Saudi Arabia is (well, sort of. The Sauds rule because of the deal they made with the islamofascists). Iran is (please see "Islamic Republic of Iran").

Afghanistan wants to be (please see "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan").

See also Whackistan ("Islamic Republic of Whackistan"), and Mauritania.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[SpeedRacer 1]

I believe we should just shove our head up our ass and blunder ahead with whatever hasn't worked for the last forty years.

Speed Racer
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[dreamdancer 0]

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Eventually Israel be drowned by a sea of brown people due to birth rates. That's really their biggest fear at the end of the day. That's why they can't give the Arabs any rights.

this is the key - demography is against a jewish state.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[muff528 3]

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Everyone is missing the point here...even Obama who is usually a smart guy.

The 2 state solution will never work. It must be one state with all citizens having equal rights. I know, crazy concept right?

You can't form a state around a religion and have it stand the test of time. In Israel, if you're not Jewish you are a second class citizen.

It is unsustainable to have a minority population opressing the majority. How well did that work out in South Africa?

Regardless of how long it takes, the end result will have to be one state or they will simply destroy each other.

The Israeli people are their own worst enemy.

You are absolutely right in that a "single-state solution" with a government that represents all citizens is the only option. What you don't seem to get is that the only solution that will be accepted/allowed by the rest of the Islamic world is a one-state solution that subjugates non-muslims to an Islamic state government that treats them as 2nd-class citizens (they will get to keep their heads as long as they pay their protection money and obey the modesty police). evidence: all other muslim countries.

"The rest of the Islamic world" is not really relevant to the discussion. The people of the territory of Israel/Palestine will eventually rise up and demand their freedom and I wouldn't want to be one of the people that was standing in their way.

Just to follow up on this... "The rest of the Islamic world" have poisoned Israel's relationship with the existing Arab and Bedouin populations from the very first day of Israel's independence. They are most responsible for the current, largely self-imposed condition of these peoples (who are considered citizens of Israel by the Israeli government and who have voting rights and other rights of citizenship.) By "self-imposed" I only mean that they have (maybe unwittingly) allowed external influences to direct their relationship with the new country of Israel.

I think that the idea of some imagined Israeli "fear" of being voted into oblivion by the "brown people" is nothing more than race-baiting intended to deflect attention from the real problems. My opinion, of course.

And from Wiki (and other sources cited in the article):

"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population. The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship. Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents. They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights."

Note that even the Arabs living in the "occupied territories" that have refused Israeli citizenship are entitled to the above-mentioned services an rights.

External interference by the surrounding Islamic world has never allowed a normal relationship to develop between an independent Israel and it's non-Jewish population ...from the very beginning. I wonder what Israel would look like now if not for that interference and aggression.

[Gravitymaster 0]

In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will never allow Israel to live in peace. It is much worse than the racism that occured in the US for many years. It will take generations for it to die out and that's only if they stopped teaching it today, which won't happen. So all these dreams that if Israel would "just do this" peace would come to the ME, are nothing but delusions and could become nightmares for Israel.