High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened
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dreamdancer, in Speakers Corner
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QuoteQuotewhat they can't do is force even a single schoolchild to pray to their fantasy being...
Do you really think that saying a prayer and praying are the same thing?
I can guarantee you that if somebody said a prayer out loud beside me, I would not be praying. Even if I was surrounded by 10,000 people saying a prayer, out loud all around me, I would not be praying.
Even when somebody says, let us pray for the homeless. Even then I can think and ponder the plight of the homeless without actually praying.
Never mind the brainwashing part. I think you need some prior brainwashing, before even considering that a possibility.
we're talking about children here. for instance i've taken my two little ones out of school assembly where they have to pray. i call this brainwashing. we've told the teachers that we're atheist yet time and again my littlest one tells me that some teacher or other has told him that we don't die and that there is a heaven etc...
brainwashing is exactly what it is.
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SkyDekker 1,465
Yup he got what he wanted.
But he also found out that actions have consequences. You can win and lose all at the same time.
But he also found out that actions have consequences. You can win and lose all at the same time.
SkyDekker 1,465
Quotewe're talking about children here. for instance i've taken my two little ones out of school assembly where they have to pray. i call this brainwashing. we've told the teachers that we're atheist yet time and again my littlest one tells me that some teacher or other has told him that we don't die and that there is a heaven etc...
brainwashing is exactly what it is.
It is no more brainwashing than you brainwashing your children to be atheist. In stead of removing my children, I teach my children. In the end they are allowed to make their own decisions. Their belief structure will likely alter or maybe even completely change during their lifetime regardless.
In the end he stood up and the law was upheld for him. The court of public opinion is a different matter though.
so you'd belittle the virgin mary and tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus. ok...
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billvon 3,008
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>so you'd belittle the virgin mary and tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus.
And kill puppies, and something about Hitler. Don't forget Hitler.
And kill puppies, and something about Hitler. Don't forget Hitler.
QuoteQuotewe're talking about children here. for instance i've taken my two little ones out of school assembly where they have to pray. i call this brainwashing. we've told the teachers that we're atheist yet time and again my littlest one tells me that some teacher or other has told him that we don't die and that there is a heaven etc...
brainwashing is exactly what it is.
It is no more brainwashing than you brainwashing your children to be atheist.
i do no such thing. they can make their own decisions when they are adult (when i said 'we' i meant my wife and i). the only time religion is brought up is when i have to handle the crap the teachers are telling them...
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Quote>so you'd belittle the virgin mary and tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus.
And kill puppies, and something about Hitler. Don't forget Hitler.
another good christian...
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[Reply]we're talking about children here. for instance i've taken my two little ones out of school assembly where they have to pray
Wow! You have soooooo painted yourself into a corner here! The kid's parents apparently wanted him to participate in an invocation. He didn't want to - against the parents' wishes, it seems. After all, they threw him out.
Now let's look at your kids. Let's say they want to pray. Are you going to let them? Now you're getting into parental issues and control. This kid rebelled against his parents. Would yoy be so supportive if your kids rebelled against you?
"My parents are trying to brainwash me. There's a whole world out there of people who believe in one or more gods. I'd like to see what this is about but my parents pull me out of school every time there is a chance to learn about it. They tell me that those people are brainwashed and that they will brainwash me. Those are my firneds and classmates and they seem all right."
Seriously - what would you do in that circumstance? Aren't you teaching absitnence from religion like the religious are teaching abstinence from sex? Isn't that simply an act of elementary denial? Don't you want to expose your kids to it so that you can discuss it with them? Don't you believe that your kids could be more well-rounded and better educated if they are not prevented from it?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
jaybird18c 24
I disagree with this kid and the whole situation but this is exactly why all three of my children are in private Christian school. The state government and the ACLU can both shove it!
billvon 3,008
>but this is exactly why all three of my children are in private Christian school.
That's the right way to solve the problem of wanting prayer in school (or not wanting prayer in school.) Take your own money and put your kids wherever you choose.
That's the right way to solve the problem of wanting prayer in school (or not wanting prayer in school.) Take your own money and put your kids wherever you choose.
Coreece 190
Quoteso you'd belittle the virgin mary
Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.
Quoteand tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus.
Trust me, I can be much more personable than that.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
QuoteNow let's look at your kids. Let's say they want to pray.
why on earth would they want to - they're only 6 and 8 and praying is something that has to be taught to them.
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QuoteQuoteso you'd belittle the virgin mary
Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.Quoteand tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus.
Trust me, I can be much more personable than that.
and when they say you're hurting their feelings you'd stop and agree with them?
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
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Um - maybe because they have friends that do? Maybe their friends tell them things that sound pretty cool.
I am one of those who exposes his kids to lots of things. I'm atheist but I don't put down religion or hide my kids from it. You are deliberately withholding information from them because of a personal belief. Which is fine.
However - you are keeping your kids ignorant. I believe ignorance breeeds contempt and is the furthest thing possible from understanding. Churches often indoctrinate ignorance. You are youself indoctrinating ignorance.
You are what you despise.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I am one of those who exposes his kids to lots of things. I'm atheist but I don't put down religion or hide my kids from it. You are deliberately withholding information from them because of a personal belief. Which is fine.
However - you are keeping your kids ignorant. I believe ignorance breeeds contempt and is the furthest thing possible from understanding. Churches often indoctrinate ignorance. You are youself indoctrinating ignorance.
You are what you despise.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteI am one of those who exposes his kids to lots of things. I'm atheist but I don't put down religion or hide my kids from it. You are deliberately withholding information from them because of a personal belief. Which is fine.
no, i'm saying that teachers shouldn't pass their own personal views on the subject over my head. it's not in the curriculum and they're only 6 and 8. praying is a learnt behaviour and they can learn to do it, if they want, when they can make more sense of what they're being told. should i tell them all about sex too or wait till they're older...
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
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Quote
we're talking about children here. for instance i've taken my two little ones out of school assembly where they have to pray. i call this brainwashing. we've told the teachers that we're atheist yet time and again my littlest one tells me that some teacher or other has told him that we don't die and that there is a heaven etc...
brainwashing is exactly what it is.
well, we're talking about high school seniors here, so they're 18 or 17. Hardly "children."
This is a more interesting thread than your usual - it has a topic with some good meat in it.
I'm probably on the far end of tolerance for atheists in how I view the separation of Church and State in America, at least when it comes to these ceremonial motions, or displays around the holidays. I celebrate Christmas vacation, Easter, not "Happy Winter Solistice" or "Spring Break." Xmas may be Christian in origin, but it was co-opted a long long time ago.
Prayer in school sucks. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I have far more qualms about a daily prayer than I do about one at the beginning of a high school graduation. Whether or not we appreciate it, the majority of the country are (at least vaguely) practicing Christians. In LA, that number is higher. I think the kid would be demonstrating a much great sense of society by acknowledging this and ignoring that tiny portion of the ceremony.
He was not going to be harmed by silently ignoring it, and instead caused a lot of trouble for everyone, and himself, by making such a big deal out of it. In the real world, there are battles worthy of a fight, and then there a nitpicks. Pissing people off because we're in the right is not enough.
Crazily enough, he gets kicked out of home for it? Sounds like a backstory here.
As for pulling your younger kids out, eh. My mom was adamant I see no exposure to God at all, and in one of my earlier acts to assert independence (at 7 or 8?), I found a bible class for kids in my neighborhood.
Atheists are supposed to be rational people - that's one of the core reasons we don't accept, or even think about, the notion of a god. So why are we pretending our feelings are being hurt because others want to pray? The line is when they want to change our behavior - to make us pray, to prevent us from marrying who we want, or from having sex with whomever we wish.
Coreece 190
QuoteQuoteQuoteso you'd belittle the virgin mary
Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.Quoteand tell the muslims that they're wrong about jesus.
Trust me, I can be much more personable than that.
and when they say you're hurting their feelings you'd stop and agree with them?
Yes...the Gospel is offensive. We know that. If I mitigate it, then I only love myself because I'm more worried about these people liking me rather the truth about the Gospel. In my experience, the softening of the Gospel leads to a hard heart. Everything about spirituality is practically antithetical to that of the physical...
Consider this:
John Macarthur - (paraphrased from Dr. Jay E. Adams, A Call to Discernment)
Quote"Black and white preaching, teaching from Scripture is seen as offensive and fanatical. But in the Bible, antithesis is crucial, discernment is essential. And the Bible just lays things down black and white. I mean, just follow this thought. From the Garden of Eden with its two trees, one allowed and one forbidden, to the eternal destiny of the human being, in heaven or hell, the Bible sets forth two and only two ways, God's way and all other ways. People are said to be saved or lost. They belong to God's people or Satan's people. There is the mount of blessing and the mount of cursing. There is the narrow way and the broad way. There is eternal life and eternal destruction. There are those who are against us and those who are with us. There are those within the Kingdom, those without the Kingdom. There is life and death, truth and falsehood, good and bad, light and darkness, kingdom of God, kingdom of Satan, love, hatred, spiritual wisdom, wisdom of the world. Christ is said to be the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Him, He is the only name under the sky by which one may be saved. Everything in Scripture is absolute. It is basic to divine revelation."
Jay Adams, A Call to Discernment
Quote"Not only will you find such antithetical teaching, and much more, on nearly every page of the Bible, but even the construction of the Hebrew language itself seems designed to teach antithesis. Much scriptural poetry, many proverbs, and even some narrative is antithetical in structure.
Perhaps you have wondered about the principle underlying the clean/unclean distinctions of the Old Testament. Various rationales have been given for some of these distinctions, yet many seem to be purely arbitrary. May I suggest that all problems of arbitrariness are resolved when you see the clean/unclean system as a means of alerting the Jew to the fact that all day long, every day, in whatever he does, he must consciously choose God's way. Choices about food, clothing, farming techniques, justice, health care, holidays, and methods of worship were made either God's way or some other way. In other words, the clean/unclean system was designed to develop in God's people an antithetical mentality. Forbidding the mixing of materials in clothing, for example, doesn't seem so arbitrary after all when considered in the light of the biblical concern to create an antithetical posture toward life.
But with pastors and people alike growing up in an environment that stresses continuum thinking, anti- thesis is dulled as more and more people attempt to integrate sociology, psychology, and business management principles with Scripture. Teachers in Christian colleges now consider it "one of the key tasks of Christian higher education" to "seek to integrate his [the professor's] faith with his learning." The key task, you see, no longer is to distinguish God's ways from others but to find places of agreement..."
http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/actd.htm
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/52-32_A-Call-for-Discernment-Part-1
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
i had the whole lot from about the age of 8 - 11. i used to hold the bible for the vicar to read from at service. never trusted him and tried my best never to be alone with him.
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QuoteQuoteno, not 'they', will 'you' pray to the virgin mary if catholics are the majority in your school...
or to allah if muslims are a majority...
and if not, why not?
No, because they're not forcing me to...
I've learned to fuction in a free society without having to sue people for emotional stess.
I like to engage society's diversity...it allows an opportunity to be an influence.
Okay, not you. Let's say your children. While they are still in elementary school. Prayers led by the principal and/or teacher. Your response shows that as an adult you would have one reaction. Perhaps you do not remember or cannot picture the coercive nature of such actions led by an authority figure. The coercive nature is much more persuasive on younger children. This coercive nature is why it is prohibited in school.
I am not offended when people pray in front of me either. However I do not believe it is appropriate for public school assemblies.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
Quote
well, we're talking about high school seniors here, so they're 18 or 17. Hardly "children."
This is a more interesting thread than your usual - it has a topic with some good meat in it.
I'm probably on the far end of tolerance for atheists in how I view the separation of Church and State in America, at least when it comes to these ceremonial motions, or displays around the holidays. I celebrate Christmas vacation, Easter, not "Happy Winter Solistice" or "Spring Break." Xmas may be Christian in origin, but it was co-opted a long long time ago.
Prayer in school sucks. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I have far more qualms about a daily prayer than I do about one at the beginning of a high school graduation. Whether or not we appreciate it, the majority of the country are (at least vaguely) practicing Christians. In LA, that number is higher. I think the kid would be demonstrating a much great sense of society by acknowledging this and ignoring that tiny portion of the ceremony.
He was not going to be harmed by silently ignoring it, and instead caused a lot of trouble for everyone, and himself, by making such a big deal out of it. In the real world, there are battles worthy of a fight, and then there a nitpicks. Pissing people off because we're in the right is not enough.
Crazily enough, he gets kicked out of home for it? Sounds like a backstory here.
As for pulling your younger kids out, eh. My mom was adamant I see no exposure to God at all, and in one of my earlier acts to assert independence (at 7 or 8?), I found a bible class for kids in my neighborhood.
Atheists are supposed to be rational people - that's one of the core reasons we don't accept, or even think about, the notion of a god. So why are we pretending our feelings are being hurt because others want to pray? The line is when they want to change our behavior - to make us pray, to prevent us from marrying who we want, or from having sex with whomever we wish.
Very well said.
I almost hate to use the term "Christian" anymore because it's such a relative term, but as a Christian I think I'm more appalled at the reaction of the society that considers themselves "Christians", than I am the kid. Sure, he sounds like perhaps a spoiled brat that just wanted some attention. Sure it would be much more practical for him in life to relate to the society he lives in if its not actually "harming" him in a realistic way.
But.... why the hell does anybody that wants to or claims to preach the "love of Jesus", find justification for their actions of demeaning and shunning this kid? I just don't get it. I think if we were following what Jesus preached, we'd be reaching out to this kid and making your kids invite him over supper, or take him on a family vacation. Engage in some entertaining theological discussion with the chap.
Just goes to show how disconnected the traditional American culturized Christianity, especially in the bible belt (I can say that since I live in MS), is from the reality of Jesus's teachings. I'm sickened by the dogmatic, pharisitical (if thats even a word) attitude of a society that as a majority classifies themselves as Christians. Sad, that I gotta call out my own here. But I'm not going defend people belittling others on the account of a religion that I supposedly share the same faith with them.
QuoteI celebrate Christmas vacation, Easter, not "Happy Winter Solistice" or "Spring Break." Xmas may be Christian in origin, but it was co-opted a long long time ago.
Prayer in school sucks. It's wrong, it's illegal, but I have far more qualms about a daily prayer than I do about one at the beginning of a high school graduation. Whether or not we appreciate it, the majority of the country are (at least vaguely) practicing Christians. In LA, that number is higher. I think the kid would be demonstrating a much great sense of society by acknowledging this and ignoring that tiny portion of the ceremony.
Christmas is pagan in origin. The Christians co-opted it a long time ago but retained many of the pagan elements. Easter is a spring pagan festival through and through.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
I'm not sure the school district and/or principal were blameless in this. If you watch the video, it is clear they could have stopped her after she said, "For those of you who share the same belief I do, I ask you to please bow your head as I pray . . ."
They gave their approval for an illegal act to take place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD8iQFaw7I
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