High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

[mnealtx 0]

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Did I say I have a problem with someone in a restaurant praying?

"I do not have a problem with your freedom of religion if you allow me the freedom from it."

"When I start having a problem with your religion is when you can not keep it to yourself and feel the need to intrude upon others."

Remember those - you know, in response to the SPECIFIC QUESTION about a family praying in a restaurant?

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Did I say if I do not like something that means others have no right to do it?

I didn't say that - I said that you value your 'freedom from religion' more highly than their freedom to worship.

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Your coworker collapsed laughing. Did you make yet another assumption about what he was laughing about?

I'm pretty sure that "your first couple posts" is referring to something that YOU did, in fact, write - but why don't you have your supervisor come explain the concept to you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

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The Supreme Court has held that "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." (Mergens, 1990) and that "an individual's contribution to a government-created forum was not government speech." (Rosenberger, 1995)

Thus, the claims of government mandate or government sponsorship of a location as a bar against religious speech is a failed argument. Additionally, religious speech is protected by the First Amendment - there is no basis to a claim that you are allowed to be 'free of religion'.

Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000)
Students may not use a school's loudspeaker system to offer student-led, student-initiated prayer.
Before football games, members of the student body of a Texas high school elected one of their classmates to address the players and spectators. These addresses were conducted over the school's loudspeakers and usually involved a prayer. Attendance at these events was voluntary. Three students sued the school arguing that the prayers violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. A majority of the Court rejected the school's argument that since the prayer was student initiated and student led, as opposed to officially sponsored by the school, it did not violate the First Amendment. The Court held that this action did constitute school-sponsored prayer because the loudspeakers that the students used for their invocations were owned by the school.

Bottom line is that prayer in schools is NOT allowed, student led or otherwise. You can argue all you want about restaurants, cafes, your house, my house, whatever. The thread is about prayer in SCHOOL, just like prayer at City Council meetings.

It is banned. It is banned if led by clergy, led by government officials, led by other people at the said function or event.

The fact that people continue to do it, does not make it legal, nor right, and I will continue to support the ban of prayer at any government function, including congress, schools, council, state and local governments.

There are all kinds of abuses of power by politicians at every level of government. The fact that Congress/Senate/Mayors/Commissioners say prayers is nothing short of obscene and an abuse of the powers of their office.

[BrokenR1 0]

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I said that you value your 'freedom from religion' more highly than their freedom to worship.

However you word it you're still making false assumptions by twisting words around. Kinda like a politician but without knowing when to cut your losses and run.


So you haven't answered this yet.

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Did I say I have a problem with someone in a restaurant praying?

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Remember those - you know, in response to the SPECIFIC QUESTION about a family praying in a restaurant?

One of those was with a response to the original question although was not the answer itself. The other was to try and help you understand something beyond your grasp.

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I'm pretty sure that "your first couple posts" is referring to something that YOU did, in fact, write - but why don't you have your supervisor come explain the concept to you.

I know that you're pretty sure what you wrote was referring to me. What you have proved so far however is your ability to falsely assume things hence my question.

Interesting responses though. This is what, the third time you take something I say and try to use it yourself as some sort of comeback?

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[BrokenR1 0]

It's late here and my coworker just got out of his church practice so we're taking off for the night. (Wonder if I put whatever my values are above his freedom to worship?)

If someone else who understands that you can disagree or not like something someone does while respecting their rights wants to explain it, good luck.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Edit to add link: The Bastrop Police Department and Morehouse Parish Sheriff's Office said they had not received any complaints by the student about the alleged threats.

hardly surprising. When he privately spoke to the principal about his concerns, he was outed. No reason to believe complaining to the local Christian sheriff will do any more.

[dreamdancer 0]

from your link:

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a Christian community, has sent death threats to the young man who began this. Your community has ostracized the young man over this. Atheists, on the other hand, have given the young man support and charity.

You have also violated the constitution. Your principal has even lied about not knowing that the prayer would happen during the ceremony. There is video footage of the rehearsal in which there was a prayer said by Laci Mattice. If it happened during rehearsal, it was sure to happen during the real thing. The school did not react and remove Laci from a position where such a speech was possible when it was quite clear she planned on violating the law.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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The Court held that this action did constitute school-sponsored prayer because the loudspeakers that the students used for their invocations were owned by the school.

Oh, really - maybe you can show just WHERE in the decision it states that.

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Bottom line is that prayer in schools is NOT allowed, student led or otherwise.

Wrong. From Santa Fe: "The Religion Clauses of the First Amendment prevent the government from making any law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. By no means do these commands impose a prohibition on all religious activity in our public schools. Thus, nothing in the Constitution as interpreted by this Court prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the schoolday."

And also from Santa Fe, referencing Rosenberger: "We have held, for example, that an individual's contribution to a government-created forum was not government speech."

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You can argue all you want about restaurants, cafes, your house, my house, whatever. The thread is about prayer in SCHOOL, just like prayer at City Council meetings.

It is banned.

As shown above, it is not.

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It is banned if led by clergy, led by government officials, led by other people at the said function or event.

Nope, sorry.

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The fact that people continue to do it, does not make it legal, nor right

The fact that you continually misunderstand and misconstrue the not only the law but the SC decisions does not make your opinion legal nor right.

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and I will continue to support the ban of prayer at any government function, including congress, schools, council, state and local governments.

So, start at the top - lets see those angry letters to Obama about the Congressional chaplains that open sessions of Congress with a prayer.

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There are all kinds of abuses of power by politicians at every level of government. The fact that Congress/Senate/Mayors/Commissioners say prayers is nothing short of obscene and an abuse of the powers of their office.

You're so cute when you think you have a point.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

perhaps you are having trouble with the comprehension of the case...

last paragraphs of the ruling:

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313 The Religion Clauses of the First Amendment
prevent the government from making any law respecting the
establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof. By no means do these commands impose a prohibition
on all religious activity in our public schools. Indeed,
the common purpose of the Religion Clauses “is to secure religious
liberty.” Thus, nothing in the Constitution as interpreted
by this Court prohibits any public school student from
voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the
schoolday. But the religious liberty protected by the Constitution
is abridged when the State affirmatively sponsors the
particular religious practice of prayer.
The policy is invalid on its face because it establishes an improper
majoritarian election on religion, and unquestionably
has the purpose and creates the perception of encouraging the
delivery of prayer at a series of important school events.
The judgment of the Court of Appeals is, accordingly, affirmed.
It is so ordered.

Prayer was shot down.

end of it

Am I cute now?

You really should try to read the case before you comment, I did.

[Coreece 190]

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Prayer was shot down.

end of it

Am I cute now?

Ya, very cute...



hugs n' kisses

...and they say we're delusional...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Butters 0]

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so you'd belittle the virgin mary

Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.

So you would belittle others beliefs because they are not your beliefs.

No, I would explain how many of their beliefs are not found in scripture and in fact, are the opposite.

And they would explain how many of your beliefs are not found in their scripture ...

PS: Ignorant religious individuals make me wish the rapture had happened because then the world wouldn't have to deal with them and could move on to bigger and better things.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[mnealtx 0]

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perhaps you are having trouble with the comprehension of the case...

last paragraphs of the ruling:

Quote

313 The Religion Clauses of the First Amendment
prevent the government from making any law respecting the
establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof. By no means do these commands impose a prohibition
on all religious activity in our public schools. Indeed,
the common purpose of the Religion Clauses “is to secure religious
liberty.” Thus, nothing in the Constitution as interpreted
by this Court prohibits any public school student from
voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the
schoolday. But the religious liberty protected by the Constitution
is abridged when the State affirmatively sponsors the
particular religious practice of prayer.
The policy is invalid on its face because it establishes an improper
majoritarian election on religion, and unquestionably
has the purpose and creates the perception of encouraging the
delivery of prayer at a series of important school events.
The judgment of the Court of Appeals is, accordingly, affirmed.
It is so ordered.

Prayer was shot down.

end of it

Am I cute now?

You really should try to read the case before you comment, I did.

Couldn't prove it by your posts. As clearly shown in the decision, it was about the policy, not the prayer:

"The District, nevertheless, asks us to pretend that we do not recognize what every Santa Fe High School student understands clearly-that this policy is about prayer. The District further asks us to accept what is obviously untrue: that these messages are necessary to "solemnize" a football game and that this single-student, year-long position is essential to the protection of student speech. We refuse to turn a blind eye to the context in which this policy arose, and that context quells any doubt that this policy was implemented with the purpose of endorsing school prayer. Therefore, the simple enactment of this policy, with the purpose and perception of school endorsement of student prayer, was a constitutional violation."

THAT was the reason for the decision - and it was the correct one.

Guess you must've (oh so) innocently missed the line directly preceding your emphasis:

"Thus, nothing in the Constitution as interpreted
by this Court prohibits any public school student from
voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the
schoolday."

Nice try, Skippy. Are you this sloppy with your rigging manuals, as well?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

OK, my bad, Prayer POLICY was shot down.

From your argument, you would think that the Supreme Court said it was OK to have open prayer at school functions. They did not.

policy changed, no prayer. Same decisions would be made today. Prayer at government/public/school functions is an endorsement of government supported religion and is unconstitutional.

argue all the semantics you want, the end result was no prayer.



you really ought to be an attorney, the arguments you make in the full face of

[Coreece 190]

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so you'd belittle the virgin mary

Certainly not! Just the Roman Pagan goddess worship of her. I'd use the book from which they base their faith to argue my case.

So you would belittle others beliefs because they are not your beliefs.

No, I would explain how many of their beliefs are not found in scripture and in fact, are the opposite.

And they would explain how many of your beliefs are not found in their scripture ...

Actually, no...that's not how it works.

Many Catholics will actually listen and be appauled...I've attended many Protestant/non-denominational Christian Churches across the country and all except one had a majority comprised of reform Catholics.

Some will listen to you all day untill you say you're not Catholic anymore, then they'll say "oh, you're not Catholic? Well then, you're going to hell."

Some will just admit their beliefs are not biblical.

Never...and I repeat, never have they had the ability to show me how my beliefs aren't biblical. It's a
religion built upon ignorance.

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Ignorant religious individuals make me wish the rapture had happened because then the world wouldn't have to deal with them and could move on to bigger and better things.

Can you even grasp the irony of that statement?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[mnealtx 0]

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OK, my bad, Prayer POLICY was shot down.

From your argument, you would think that the Supreme Court said it was OK to have open prayer at school functions. They did not.

policy changed, no prayer. Same decisions would be made today.

As I stated, the decision was correct and the same decision would have been made in this case, had the school not removed the prayer from the agenda.

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Prayer at government/public/school functions is an endorsement of government supported religion and is unconstitutional.

WRONG. Re-read the damn decision, that's NOT what it says.

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argue all the semantics you want, the end result was no prayer.

End result was that the policy was struck down - there's a difference, not that you can seem to comprehend it.

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you really ought to be an attorney, the arguments you make in the full face of

You really SHOULDN'T be, given your non-existent understanding of the issue.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

maybe you can show the Supreme Court ruling where government sponsored POLICY of prayer or government sponsored prayer has been upheld.....

[jakee 1,500]

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I've attended many Protestant/non-denominational Christian Churches across the country and all except one had a majority comprised of reform Catholics.

No they didn't.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreece 190]

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I've attended many Protestant/non-denominational Christian Churches across the country and all except one had a majority comprised of reform Catholics.

No they didn't.

Ok, fine...what would you call em' then?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[dreamdancer 0]

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I've attended many Protestant/non-denominational Christian Churches across the country and all except one had a majority comprised of reform Catholics.

No they didn't.

Ok, fine...what would you call em' then?

delusional?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[jaybird18c 24]

This is lengthy but extremely informative concerning the Roman Catholic belief system and its radical differences with orthodox Christianity. Worth the read. It's a transcript from a lecture on the topic by Dr. John MacArthur. You can also listen to the. .mp3 on his website. It illustrates just how heretical their system has really become.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-291_The-Pope-and-the-Papacy?q=pope+and+papacy]The Pope and the Papacy

[kallend 2,028]

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This is lengthy but extremely informative concerning the Roman Catholic belief system and its radical differences with orthodox Christianity.

When you use "orthodox" do you mean "Orthodox" as in Greek or Russian? Or are you using "orthodox" in an unorthodox way?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jaybird18c 24]

Using the term in the sense of adhering to biblical doctrine. Not in the sense of describing a particular church. The term is still used correctly in the context in which I used it.

[mnealtx 0]

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maybe you can show the Supreme Court ruling where government sponsored POLICY of prayer or government sponsored prayer has been upheld.....

Sure can't - can you show the decision that says ANY prayer at gov't/public/school function is an endorsement of government supported religion and is therefore unconstitutional?

You know, what TK actually *SAID*?

Nice try.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

yep, TK 'said' it therefore it must not be true.

that will hold up in a constitutional court battle I am sure.

your use of semantics is nothing short of amazing.

change the meaning of stuff to suit your narrow belief structure. Perhaps we could spend some time arguing about the definition of the word 'the' or some other useless legal tripe.

[shropshire 0]

Kids should be seen and not heard ... ingrates

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Meso 38]

Apparently it's wrong to speak out about the prayers of the Christian faith, but I can assure you that most of these same people would be throwing chairs around if that school was praying to Allah and promoting Islam instead of Christianity.

While I don't like it, I think one has the right to preach whatever they want to their kids in their own home. But when a specific religion is promoted in schools it's a completely different story.

When I was in primary school they would force everyone to attend prayer, this in a public school. If you were a Jehovahs Witness or of other faith you were allowed to go and sit in a separate room while everyone else was in the main hall. Unfortunately for those few people, there were less than 20 of them out of 1000 students. So this handful of other people who had other religious beliefs were made fun of because their parents wouldn't let them attend the 'normal people' prayer.

Religion is often pushed onto students in schools, and it clearly needs to be done away with. I can recall teachers pulling kids aside and telling them they need to get saved, if they weren't Christian. And completely looking down on them.

Atheists aren't asking to change prayer time into Richard Dawkins hour, or promote anything that they belief. It's simply a request not to have what others believe thrown at you as an assumed truth. No one is saying don't allow the Christians at school to pray, what they're saying is, stop pushing Christianity forward as 'fact and truth' and then trying to claim it's expression religious freedom.

The religious may only have a decent defence if the schools had prayers for all religions. But that's not how it works, despite there being a variety of religions in school, the schools choose to promote one as 'right' and use that by default, pushing their idea of the right religion onto the students.

Pray where-ever you want, pray at restaurants, in the street, pray on a rollercoaster. Just don't try involve me with your prayers like schools do.


Edit to add: My post is regarding religion in schools from my experience and may differ from the current actions of schools here or in the US. But the gist of the post is merely to show that religion is schools is just a way to ostracise minorities and to try push their faith in general. You don't need a gun to be a militant, some drive a BMW X3.