kelpdiver 2 #101 September 8, 2011 Quote In its official response to the lawsuit, Walgreens lawyers denied most of Hoven's claims, including that there was an armed robbery in progress. This is an odd claim. I wonder if they just bought themselves a trial with this lie. Don't see it changing the outcome, but it may drag it out some more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #102 September 9, 2011 I wonder if the only evidence of there being an armed robbery in progress comes from the fired (no pun intended) employee. Remember he does claim he pulled his weapon while the robber had already jumped over the counter and was pointing the gun at him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #103 September 9, 2011 QuoteI wonder if the only evidence of there being an armed robbery in progress comes from the fired employee. Here's the video: http://consumerist.com/2011/09/walgreens-pharmacist-fired-for-shooting-gun-at-robber.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter Two men run inside wearing gloves and masks, and one pulls out a gun and points it at him - yeah, that's an armed robbery in progress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #104 September 9, 2011 Quoteyeah, that's an armed robbery. Yup, it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #105 September 10, 2011 Quote He didn't fire randomly in the store, he fired rapidly at someone that was 5-10 ft away (bit of a range there, no?) Missing a moving target at that range and those circumstances is not a shock. It did make the bad guys go away. 5-10 ft....yes, quite a long-range shot, no? Even I could hit that and I'm very near-sighted. How about you? If you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft away, you have no business being within 5-10 ft of a weapon. What he did was no different than firing randomly for all the good it did. Even random shots would have scared the perps away. I don't think supporters of the right to bear arms should look to this incident as being favorable to their cause.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #106 September 10, 2011 Quote Quote He didn't fire randomly in the store, he fired rapidly at someone that was 5-10 ft away (bit of a range there, no?) Missing a moving target at that range and those circumstances is not a shock. It did make the bad guys go away. 5-10 ft....yes, quite a long-range shot, no? Even I could hit that and I'm very near-sighted. How about you? Have you ever tried, in a real situation? Moving target (with a gun), not a big fat paper target. BTW, if you review that video, it's obvious that the store is empty. Fair question to ask if he knew this for certain. Also, it appears to have been lateral shots, rather than down the length of the store, but I can see the possibility of some hidden aisles behind the line of shooting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firemedic 7 #107 September 10, 2011 Looked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point. You never know what someone like that may do even when you comply. Walgreens claims Hoven escalated the situation by shooting at the perp who was trying to shoot him. I don't see it that way but that doesn't mean others won't. As I understand the law, pointing a gun at someone is an assault threatening death or grave bodily harm. I can't see shooting to eliminate that threat as an escalation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #108 September 11, 2011 Quote Quote He didn't fire randomly in the store, he fired rapidly at someone that was 5-10 ft away (bit of a range there, no?) Missing a moving target at that range and those circumstances is not a shock. It did make the bad guys go away. 5-10 ft....yes, quite a long-range shot, no? Even I could hit that and I'm very near-sighted. How about you? If you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft away, you have no business being within 5-10 ft of a weapon. What he did was no different than firing randomly for all the good it did. Even random shots would have scared the perps away. I don't think supporters of the right to bear arms should look to this incident as being favorable to their cause. Average gunfight is less than 10 feet and most rounds miss. Moving target + lots of adrenaline + lack of real combat training makes for lots of stray bullets.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #109 September 11, 2011 QuoteLooked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point. Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #110 September 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteLooked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point. Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you. Are there empirical studies that have shown that? (I really don't know.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #111 September 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteLooked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point. Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you. That is complete BS! Having been in a couple armed robberies when I worked in a convenience store, I can tell you that all the robber wants is the money. The faster you give it to them the faster they will leave without hurting anyone. Compliance puts the odds in your favor! Every retail company I've ever worked for has always had similar non-escalation policies. Walgreens has every right to terminate this employee for violating company policy and potentially exposing the company to severe civil liability in the millions of dollars.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #112 September 12, 2011 Quote Moving target + lots of adrenaline + lack of real combat training makes for lots of stray bullets. If you panic or can't control yourself, probably so. I don't see that "real combat training" is a necessity in these situations, though. 5-10 ft is still 5-10 ft and if you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft....sell the weapons to someone else. Are you and Kelp making excuses for the guy? Really? So, he had the balls to fire back. Good for him! That doesn't excuse the inability to hit a target 5-10 ft away! I'd be embarrassed to let anyone know I shot and missed from 5-10 ft? A platoon leader would have probably shot YOU in the back if he thought you couldn't do any better than that. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #113 September 12, 2011 Quote Every retail company I've ever worked for has always had similar non-escalation policies. Walgreens has every right to terminate this employee for violating company policy and potentially exposing the company to severe civil liability in the millions of dollars. I agree with this totally. I'd also hope that the NRA revokes his membership if he is a member. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #114 September 12, 2011 Quote Are you and Kelp making excuses for the guy? Really? you didn't answer my question: Have you ever tried, in a real situation? Moving target (with a gun), not a big fat paper target. As he pointed out, the reality of these situations is a bit different. And why people oppose 10 round magazine limits so vigorously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #115 September 12, 2011 Quote Quote Moving target + lots of adrenaline + lack of real combat training makes for lots of stray bullets. If you panic or can't control yourself, probably so. I don't see that "real combat training" is a necessity in these situations, though. 5-10 ft is still 5-10 ft and if you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft....sell the weapons to someone else. Are you and Kelp making excuses for the guy? Really? So, he had the balls to fire back. Good for him! That doesn't excuse the inability to hit a target 5-10 ft away! I'd be embarrassed to let anyone know I shot and missed from 5-10 ft? A platoon leader would have probably shot YOU in the back if he thought you couldn't do any better than that. I guess you have never seen footage of police gunfights where they fire multiple shots and none of them hit their target. But I won't argue with you since you are obviously posting with past gunfight experince, and are a respected instructor in the self defense field. Look out Massad Ayoob, here comes Popsjumper! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #116 September 12, 2011 Quote But I won't argue with you since you are obviously posting with past gunfight experience, and are a respected instructor in the self defense field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #117 September 12, 2011 QuoteI don't see that "real combat training" is a necessity in these situations, though. 5-10 ft is still 5-10 ft and if you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft....sell the weapons to someone else. I shoot around 500-600 rounds per month. Almost all of my shooting is done at a tactical range where we are from behind cover, moving, the target is moving, or some combination of all three. Even with all this, I still miss at times, and I see others miss as well. And this is KNOWING the course of fire, being READY to shoot, and normally not event he first range of the day. So, take an average guy that shoots a few times a year and at a block range hitting paper targets from a standing position... And I doubt many of them would perform the the standards you seem to want people to have.... For that matter, I don't think many police officers would perform as well as you think they could. I have seen MANY an LEO get humbled at a competition. As for the issue... Well the company has the right to refuse to allow an employee to carry a weapon while working.... Just like a company has the right to limit free speech while an employee is at work. Just as a company has the right to search an employee. The company when it removes the right of self defense is now (IMO) held responsible for the defense of the employee's. So, if an employee were hurt by a robbery, the company should pay up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #118 September 12, 2011 Quoteyou didn't answer my question: Have you ever tried, in a real situation? Moving target (with a gun), not a big fat paper target. Not that it's any of your business but yes, I have. Have you? Granted though, not from 5-10 ft. QuoteAs he pointed out, the reality of these situations is a bit different. And why people oppose 10 round magazine limits so vigorously. Yep, it's different than target shooting on a range. That also irrelevant to this incident. But, yes, you are right. People often oppose large maqazines because people using them quite often don't know how to use them properly and, in a tight situation, can abuse them magnificently with dire results. 5-10 ft is relevant.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #119 September 12, 2011 Quote I guess you have never seen footage of police gunfights where they fire multiple shots and none of them hit their target. But I won't argue with you since you are obviously posting with past gunfight experince, and are a respected instructor in the self defense field. Look out Massad Ayoob, here comes Popsjumper! Geez, Dougie, how arrogant and off-the-wall can you get? *whoosh*My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #120 September 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteyou didn't answer my question: Have you ever tried, in a real situation? Moving target (with a gun), not a big fat paper target. Not that it's any of your business but yes, I have. Have you? Granted though, not from 5-10 ft. I live in California. I'm not allowed to defend myself in most circumstances. Perhaps one reason why there are so many endurance athletes here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #121 September 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteI don't see that "real combat training" is a necessity in these situations, though. 5-10 ft is still 5-10 ft and if you can't hit a target, moving or not, from 5-10 ft....sell the weapons to someone else. I shoot around 500-600 rounds per month. At a range of 5-10 ft? Your training sounds good on the face of it. It's going to be a problem for you if your target is only 5-10 ft away....and you miss.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #122 September 12, 2011 Quote Quote But I won't argue with you since you are obviously posting with past gunfight experience, and are a respected instructor in the self defense field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8 Repost but still both funny and sad at the same time. Hope that wasn't you. But ya gotta hand it to him...he DID hit something within that 5-10 ft range. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #123 September 12, 2011 Quote I live in California. I'm not allowed to defend myself in most circumstances. Perhaps one reason why there are so many endurance athletes here? It helps too if you get an early warning and a good head start. Always the best policy, eh? You don't have to outrun the bullet. Just outrun your partner. Or, in the case of the Walgreen's guy, just stay within 5-10 ft...you're good to go.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #124 September 12, 2011 Quote You don't have to outrun the bullet. Just outrun your partner. that's where the knife comes in - one slash across the leg and you're home free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #125 September 12, 2011 Quote that's where the knife comes in - one slash across the leg and you're home free. That's c o l d. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
