Walgreens Employee Fired for Use of Concealed Weapon

[firemedic 7]

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Looked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point.

Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you.

That is complete BS!!
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Well, I don't think MOST times when they take you someplace else they are going to kill you but that possibility would sure be in the forefront of my mind. I also don't believe it's TOTAL BULLSHIT, because it's has happened.
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Having been in a couple armed robberies when I worked in a convenience store, I can tell you that all the robber wants is the money. The faster you give it to them the faster they will leave without hurting anyone. Compliance puts the odds in your favor!

It's terrible you had to go through that. I am glad you lived through it. I can't agree that all they want is money or drugs or whatever. It's probably all they are going to do.....probably. but there is a great deal of uncertainty in a situation like that. The guy that tried to run away could have been shot in the back just as easily. There is no way to tell for sure. I don't think you can really be so certain compliance will put the odds in your favor. The guy with the gun has all the odds in his hand.
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Every retail company I've ever worked for has always had similar non-escalation policies. Walgreens has every right to terminate this employee for violating company policy and potentially exposing the company to severe civil liability in the millions of dollars.

If non escalation is Walgreens policy then the guy who tried to run away escalated the situation by not complying. He should be terminated too.

[firemedic 7]

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Looked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point.

Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you.

Are there empirical studies that have shown that? (I really don't know.)

I haven't heard of any study like that. I've heard the police state on several occasions that, statistically, compliance betters your chance of not being hurt. But that doesn't guarantee it. I don't know how to do the clicky thing but here is a link to check out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy%27s_massacre#Robbery_and_killing_of_employees

[sacex250 0]

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Looked a the video several times and I agree with your comments here. Other than the exchange of gunfire the next really scary thing is when one of the perps chases down the employee that was trying to get away and leads him back at gun point.

Most times where the gunman tries to bring you some place else in the place, like the back of the store, they are going to kill you.

That is complete BS!!
________________________________________________
Well, I don't think MOST times when they take you someplace else they are going to kill you but that possibility would sure be in the forefront of my mind. I also don't believe it's TOTAL BULLSHIT, because it's has happened.
___________________________________________________
Having been in a couple armed robberies when I worked in a convenience store, I can tell you that all the robber wants is the money. The faster you give it to them the faster they will leave without hurting anyone. Compliance puts the odds in your favor!

It's terrible you had to go through that. I am glad you lived through it. I can't agree that all they want is money or drugs or whatever. It's probably all they are going to do.....probably. but there is a great deal of uncertainty in a situation like that. The guy that tried to run away could have been shot in the back just as easily. There is no way to tell for sure. I don't think you can really be so certain compliance will put the odds in your favor. The guy with the gun has all the odds in his hand.
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Every retail company I've ever worked for has always had similar non-escalation policies. Walgreens has every right to terminate this employee for violating company policy and potentially exposing the company to severe civil liability in the millions of dollars.

If non escalation is Walgreens policy then the guy who tried to run away escalated the situation by not complying. He should be terminated too.

Robberies involving homicide are a miniscule (i.e. extremely rare) fraction of armed robberies. In 2009 the US NCI reports 408,217 robberies vs. 15,241 murders; and I would guess that a majority of the murders were not committed during robberies. In other words, your odds of surviving a robbery are at least 26 to 1. The odds of surviving a gun battle during a robbery have to drop to at best 1:1 (evening up the odds as they say) and far lower if there's more than one armed robber. Trying to be a hero during a robbery is outright stupidity.

The incidents of employees being murdered during a robbery is very low, if they are sequestered anywhere in the store it's most likely just to keep them from calling the police. It's much more likely you'll end up locked in a walk-in freezer or storeroom than dead, which is why I said the opposite is BS. And, it's even more likely you'll just be told to lay on the ground and count to one hundred.

Another aspect of non-escalation policies is that company policies often warn employees not to call the police or sound any silent alarms while the robbers are still in the building. The last thing you want to do is have a hostage situation if the police show up too soon. The business' primary concern is for the safety of employees and customers, not stopping the robbery or catching the crooks. The business has far more to lose if someone gets hurt that what gets stolen.

No doubt the employee here made a rational decision about whether or not to bring a gun to work, what are they going to do, fire me?

Well, yes!

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Robberies involving homicide are a miniscule (i.e. extremely rare) fraction of armed robberies. In 2009 the US NCI reports 408,217 robberies vs. 15,241 murders; and I would guess that a majority of the murders were not committed during robberies. In other words, your odds of surviving a robbery are at least 26 to 1. The odds of surviving a gun battle during a robbery have to drop to at best 1:1 (evening up the odds as they say) and far lower if there's more than one armed robber. Trying to be a hero during a robbery is outright stupidity.

well, you started well, and then you just pulled that 1:1 part out of thin air. And you're claiming that at best, it's a coin flip. You're not going to find evidence to support that belief.

This particular case showed that when faced with the possibility of getting shot, bad guys run.

Is resistance safer than compliance? Seems like no, however when it came to getting mugged on the street, resisting came out better than not in terms of injuries suffered. I think you'd also want to differentiate between calmer criminals and druggies who rush the place.

[firemedic 7]

Robberies involving homicide are a miniscule (i.e. extremely rare) fraction of armed robberies. In 2009 the US NCI reports 408,217 robberies vs. 15,241 murders; and I would guess that a majority of the murders were not committed during robberies. In other words, your odds of surviving a robbery are at least 26 to 1. The odds of surviving a gun battle during a robbery have to drop to at best 1:1 (evening up the odds as they say) and far lower if there's more than one armed robber. Trying to be a hero during a robbery is outright stupidity.

The incidents of employees being murdered during a robbery is very low, if they are sequestered anywhere in the store it's most likely just to keep them from calling the police. It's much more likely you'll end up locked in a walk-in freezer or storeroom than dead, which is why I said the opposite is BS. And, it's even more likely you'll just be told to lay on the ground and count to one hundred.

Another aspect of non-escalation policies is that company policies often warn employees not to call the police or sound any silent alarms while the robbers are still in the building. The last thing you want to do is have a hostage situation if the police show up too soon. The business' primary concern is for the safety of employees and customers, not stopping the robbery or catching the crooks. The business has far more to lose if someone gets hurt that what gets stolen.

No doubt the employee here made a rational decision about whether or not to bring a gun to work, what are they going to do, fire me?

Well, yes!

[JohnRich 4]

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Robberies involving homicide are a miniscule (i.e. extremely rare) fraction of armed robberies. In 2009 the US NCI reports 408,217 robberies vs. 15,241 murders; and I would guess that a majority of the murders were not committed during robberies. In other words, your odds of surviving a robbery are at least 26 to 1. The odds of surviving a gun battle during a robbery have to drop to at best 1:1 (evening up the odds as they say) and far lower if there's more than one armed robber. Trying to be a hero during a robbery is outright stupidity.

Attack, Injury and Crime Completion Rates in Robbery and Assault Incidents:

Rates of Crime Completion by Victim's Method of Protection:


Robbery 

No self protection ........................  89%       

Tried to get help or frighten attacker ....  64%

Threatened or reasoned with attacker ......  54%

Non-violent resistance/evasion ............  51%

Physical force ............................  50%

Other measures ............................  49%

Knife .....................................  35%

Gun .......................................  31%

Other weapon ..............................  29%


Rates of Injury by Victim's Method of Protection:


Robbery  Assault

Physical force ............................  51%      52% 

Tried to get help or frighten attacker ....  49%      40%

Knife .....................................  40%      30% 

Non-violent resistance/evasion ............  35%      26%

Threatened or reasoned with attacker ......  31%      25% 

Other measures ............................  27%      21% 

No self protection ........................  25%      27%

Other weapon ..............................  22%      25%

Gun .......................................  17%      12% 


From:   Kleck G, "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America", 

Table 4.4.

Source: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime

Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b).

Note:   Percentages do not total to 100% since any single 

criminal incident can involve several different types 

of self-protection methods. 

Do you see what the single most effective means of defense is?

A gun!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Do you see what the single most effective means of defense is?

A gun!

Uhmmmm

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Gun ....................................... 31%
Other weapon .......................... 29%

[freethefly 6]

As a white male, you stand a higher chance of shooting yourself (suicide), than you do from being shot by another person.
http://sbm.temple.edu/dept/rihm/documents/seminars/Jean%20Lemaire.pdf

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=050fea9f-b064-4092-b1135c3a70de1fda

From the site:
Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DougH 270]

I can't quote a study, but I would have to guess that if you were set on killing yourself then not having a gun wouldn't be a huge impedement to pulling it off.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[freethefly 6]

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I can't quote a study, but I would have to guess that if you were set on killing yourself then not having a gun wouldn't be a huge impedement to pulling it off.

That may very well be true. However, shooting oneself in the head is usually a sure-fire way of ending ones life immediately. Where as eating pills or slitting a wrist is not. Often a person with thoughts of suicide will reach out to others before attempting the act. I was in those shoes in 1995. Had my gun not been taken from me the outcome of the depression would not been what they were. I tried several times. Each time was reversible. Had I had my gun, the attempt would not had been that.
True, not every suicide can be stopped. There are those who will succeed no matter what. Yet, if a person in your home is depress, remove the gun. Doing so just may save a persons life. I'm thankful that mine was taken from me.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DaVinci 0]

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At a range of 5-10 ft?

Various ranges, from almost contact to around 50 yards for pistols. The normal range for pistols is touch to 25 yards.

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Your training sounds good on the face of it. It's going to be a problem for you if your target is only 5-10 ft away....and you miss.

Fact is that even with all the "training" (Military/Sport shooting/fun shooting) I still miss at times.

Even with all the training... I know that stress has an affect on performance.... And those that do not know how they will react to the stress just can't even imagine.

[DaVinci 0]

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However, shooting oneself in the head is usually a sure-fire way of ending ones life immediately.....Yet, if a person in your home is depress, remove the gun. Doing so just may save a persons life.

Not pulling on a skydive does a great job as well... Maybe better. Would you suggest that if anyone thinks that their friend is depressed that they remove their skydiving gear?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Not pulling on a skydive does a great job as well... Maybe better. Would you suggest that if anyone thinks that their friend is depressed that they remove their skydiving gear?

No, but I would suggest not letting a suicidal friend go on a skydive.

[DaVinci 0]

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No, but I would suggest not letting a suicidal friend go on a skydive.

And I would not suggest a suicidal friend shoot himself.

But if you are unwilling to take away a friends car keys, his rig, all his medications, the rat poison under the sink.... Then why would you take away his firearms?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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But if you are unwilling to take away a friends car keys, his rig, all his medications, the rat poison under the sink.... Then why would you take away his firearms?

You missed my point. You can't commit suicide that easily with a rig. First of all you would need an airplane (and the whole point is that you wouldn't actually need the rig....or you wouldn't be killing yourself).

[DaVinci 0]

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You missed my point.

No, your point is that you would want to disarm a suicidal person... But you would let them still have many methods to kill themselves.

Personally, if I thought a guy was suicidal.... I'd work to remove ANY method, not just guns. (and yes, I have done it as well).

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You can't commit suicide that easily with a rig.

I can think of several examples that proves you wrong.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if you are unwilling to take away a friends car keys, his rig, all his medications, the rat poison under the sink.... Then why would you take away his firearms?

You missed my point. You can't commit suicide that easily with a rig. First of all you would need an airplane (and the whole point is that you wouldn't actually need the rig....or you wouldn't be killing yourself).

you need the rig to get on the dropzone airplane. People may not check your chest strap, but they will notice if you don't have a rig on at all.

but no, you don't need the airplane- we've seen people with pickup trucks doing crazy stuff. Not a guaranteed death, though, so an unlikely approach.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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you need the rig to get on the dropzone airplane. People may not check your chest strap, but they will notice if you don't have a rig on at all.

And the rig is easily rentable without any questions asked (after a logbook check if they don't know you)

Point is, the comparison between a gun and a rig as a tool for suicide is flawed. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the gun is a much more available and effective tool when it is 2;30 am and you are feeling depressed and alone. (or really any other time of day or place)

[rehmwa 2]

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Point is, the comparison between a gun and a rig as a tool for suicide is flawed. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the gun is a much more available and effective tool when it is 2;30 am and you are feeling depressed and alone. (or really any other time of day or place)

as is a lot of tools - so why single out guns again for your angst?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

No angst. My reply was to this statement:

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Not pulling on a skydive does a great job as well... Maybe better. Would you suggest that if anyone thinks that their friend is depressed that they remove their skydiving gear?

Just don't see the equivalence. If that makes me an angst ridden gun-o-phobe in your eyes. Oh well, I have been called a lot worse.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Point is, the comparison between a gun and a rig as a tool for suicide is flawed. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the gun is a much more available and effective tool when it is 2;30 am and you are feeling depressed and alone. (or really any other time of day or place)

Fair enough. If it's available, the gun is the preferred tool for Americans. Since I'm giving you grief over drunk drivers versus gun slingers, I have to acknowledge the numbers.

However, Japan, with no guns, still has a higher suicide rate.

[DaVinci 0]

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Just don't see the equivalence.

A guy that you THINK it suicidal. You advocate removing one type of their property that and has been used to commit suicide.

Another object that can and has been used to commit suicide you ignore.

You can't see the issue there? You are willing to remove one object, but willing to overlook the other.

Personally... If I thought someone was on suicide watch, I'd remove everything that would assist them. You seem to only be willing to remove ONE type of object.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If I thought someone was on suicide watch, I'd remove everything that would assist them. You seem to only be willing to remove ONE type of object.

Your premise is impossible. Not quite sure how you would take away highway overpasses or train tracks.

Hence, if it is warranted, I would focus on the easiest and most used option. This isn't a concept just for guns and suicides, it is a fairly basic concept that can be used for most problems.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If I thought someone was on suicide watch, I'd remove everything that would assist them. You seem to only be willing to remove ONE type of object.

Your premise is impossible. Not quite sure how you would take away highway overpasses or train tracks.

Hence, if it is warranted, I would focus on the easiest and most used option. This isn't a concept just for guns and suicides, it is a fairly basic concept that can be used for most problems.

well, you meant to say easiest and most used option that most people won't object to you stealing away. If you proposed taking the car away as well, the howls would come quickly.

[billvon 3,031]

>as is a lot of tools - so why single out guns again for your angst?

Same reason you take away a drunk's keys. Can he still kill himself? Yep. But did you just reduce the odds of him killing himself (or someone else?) Yep.