dreamdancer 0 #1 June 16, 2011 eat your heart out kafka... Quote“On the day before trial, nearly four years since he had been arrested, I had just returned from dropping off clothes for Fahad to wear to court when I received a call from my attorney,” Fahad’s father said. “The government had offered a deal to drop three of the four charges against Fahad, if he accepted one charge which carried a 15-year sentence and Fahad had agreed to this plea bargain. I was shocked by my son’s decision on the eve of his trial, but after I thought more, I wondered how anyone could have decided differently in his situation. Fahad had been in solitary confinement, under SAMs, for nearly three years. The judge had in every instance sided with the government in pretrial motions. If convicted, Fahad faced a possible 70-year sentence. Under those circumstances, Fahad’s decision to accept one charge was no longer surprising. He has been in for five years this June.” “The U.S. government is concerned about human rights in China and Iran,” he went on. “I wonder about Fahad’s rights, and how they have been blatantly violated in this great land. It seems like ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is only a saying. My son was treated as guilty until proven innocent.” “The Muslim community supported my son by offering prayers, particularly in the month of Ramadan,” he said. “But they were initially afraid to raise their voices against injustice. This reminds me of the fear the Chinese have under Communist rule, or Iranians under Ahmadinejad. As a citizen, I now have developed fear of my own government.” “For one charge for luggage storing socks, ponchos and raincoats in his apartment, he is serving a 15-year sentence in the harshest federal prison in the country, still in solitary confinement, still under SAMs,” his father said. “The cooperating witness in the case, the one who brought and delivered the luggage, is now free and able to enjoy his life and family.” http://www.alternet.org/world/151280/hedges%3A_sams_--_the_creepy%2C_inhumane_legal_weapon_the_state_uses_to_break_prisoners/?page=entirestay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #2 June 16, 2011 Quoteeat your heart out kafka... Quote“On the day before trial, nearly four years since he had been arrested, I had just returned from dropping off clothes for Fahad to wear to court when I received a call from my attorney,” Fahad’s father said. “The government had offered a deal to drop three of the four charges against Fahad, if he accepted one charge which carried a 15-year sentence and Fahad had agreed to this plea bargain. I was shocked by my son’s decision on the eve of his trial, but after I thought more, I wondered how anyone could have decided differently in his situation. Fahad had been in solitary confinement, under SAMs, for nearly three years. The judge had in every instance sided with the government in pretrial motions. If convicted, Fahad faced a possible 70-year sentence. Under those circumstances, Fahad’s decision to accept one charge was no longer surprising. He has been in for five years this June.” “The U.S. government is concerned about human rights in China and Iran,” he went on. “I wonder about Fahad’s rights, and how they have been blatantly violated in this great land. It seems like ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is only a saying. My son was treated as guilty until proven innocent.” “The Muslim community supported my son by offering prayers, particularly in the month of Ramadan,” he said. “But they were initially afraid to raise their voices against injustice. This reminds me of the fear the Chinese have under Communist rule, or Iranians under Ahmadinejad. As a citizen, I now have developed fear of my own government.” “For one charge for luggage storing socks, ponchos and raincoats in his apartment, he is serving a 15-year sentence in the harshest federal prison in the country, still in solitary confinement, still under SAMs,” his father said. “The cooperating witness in the case, the one who brought and delivered the luggage, is now free and able to enjoy his life and family.” http://www.alternet.org/world/151280/hedges%3A_sams_--_the_creepy%2C_inhumane_legal_weapon_the_state_uses_to_break_prisoners/?page=entire I am sure he did not get arrested for storing socks ponchos and raincoats Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #3 June 16, 2011 Quote I am sure he did not get arrested for storing socks ponchos and raincoats He wasn't. He was arrested because they were delivering the stuff to Al Qaeda groups in Afghanistan so they could stay warm while they were blowing up my friends. Fuck him and anyone who feels sorry for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #4 June 16, 2011 accused doesn't mean guilty...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #5 June 16, 2011 Quoteaccused doesn't mean guilty... We have many so called patriots who say they live/die to protect the constitution but they have no issue taking a giant shit on it when it comes to brown people, and when fear gets to them. Weak foundations, weak ethics, and flexible moral spine its an epidemic.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 June 16, 2011 well, I see the two polar ends have been established. Anyone going to fill in the middle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #7 June 16, 2011 i've already done the middle. if you don't think what's happened to this guy is ridiculous then you're obviously an extremist...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 June 16, 2011 QuoteWe have many so called patriots who say they live/die to protect the constitution but they have no issue taking a giant shit on it when it comes to brown people hosing people who don't believe or live exactly like they do, and when fear gets to them. Weak foundations, weak ethics, and flexible moral spine its an epidemic. FIFY ...and I took special note of the reference to "fear". "The constitution is great as long as it doesn't allow something that scares me"....you bozos.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 June 16, 2011 "...“The Muslim community supported my son by offering prayers, particularly in the month of Ramadan,” he said. “But they were initially afraid to raise their voices against injustice. This reminds me of the fear the Chinese have under Communist rule, or Iranians under Ahmadinejad. As a citizen, I now have developed fear of my own government.” I thought that was the most telling part. I'm tellin' ya' folks...it's a big game with maybe your life on the line. They try to put you in jail, you devise ways to stay out. Winner take all. But, for you idiots, take note: the playing field is tilted. THEY make all the rules and YOU are expected to know every single one of them. Good luck!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #10 June 16, 2011 Quoteaccused doesn't mean guilty... No, but an admission of guilt does.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #11 June 16, 2011 Another Alternut post defending terrorists. What a surprise."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #12 June 16, 2011 Quotewell, I see the two polar ends have been established. Anyone going to fill in the middle? I guess the question is why the government feels that secrecy is a good weapon to use in dealing with terrorists. I would have no problem with amending the Constitution to allow more secrecy in dealing with terrorists if this were part of a recognition that we live in different times now and secrecy is a necessary tool in order to save innocent lives. But it seems to me that an atmosphere of secrecy only helps the terrorists--it doesn't help innocent people. In an open and speedy trial, yes, more information about terrorists and their intentions would become known to the general public. But wouldn't that be a good thing? A terrorist can only succeed if they can keep their plans secret. The more the public knows about terrorists and their intentions, the harder it will be for terrorists to carry out those intentions. It has become common, in various public venues, for the public to be urged to help confront terrorism with the plea "if you see something, say something". In an atmosphere of secrecy, though, the public has no idea what specifically to look for, so it is hard to know when they have "seen something" for which they should "say something". Can anyone who has experience in such matters offer a rational argument--not one motivated by rage because of past attacks on Americans or Israelis--as to why they feel secrecy is a good tool for dealing with terrorism?"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 June 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteaccused doesn't mean guilty... We have many so called patriots who say they live/die to protect the constitution but they have no issue taking a giant shit on it when it comes to brown people, and when fear gets to them. So quick to make it about brown, are we? "SAMs are the legal weapon of choice used by the state when it seeks to isolate and break prisoners. They were bequeathed to us by the Clinton administration, which justified SAMs as a way to prevent Mafia or other gang leaders from ordering hits from inside prison." (I don't think it needs to be repeated that Reno was as big a fan of the Constitution as any of her successors under Bush) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #14 June 16, 2011 QuotePeople plead guilty to things they didn't do all the time. In one sense I don't think it is especially relevant whether this man is actually innocent or guilty. Secrecy was the wrong tool for the government/prosecution to use in either case. If guilty, he has been sentenced to only 15 years which is an unbelievably light sentence for the crimes he was accused of--and this light sentence was made possible given the government's apparent fear of confronting him with the evidence in open court. If innocent, it is a terrible travesty of justice. Either way the outcome is very wrong."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 June 16, 2011 Quote If guilty, he has been sentenced to only 15 years which is an unbelievably light sentence for the crimes he was accused of--and this light sentence was made possible given the government's apparent fear of confronting him with the evidence in open court. It wasn't immediately possible to find anything detailing the prosecution's side. So far, all I see is socks and raincoats. So you have an American abroad acting as as a logistics clerk for an enemy force. Treasonous, but probably not the hanging kind. More like the "don't come back, now" variety. Cancel his passport and leave him to find a new home. But since they got him, 15 years isn't outlandish. Before 9/11, it looked like a silent cold war with China would become more prominent. There was Chinese scientist at Los Alamos that got scapegoated for a widespread leaks problems and they also threw a ton of charges and then settled for a single guilty plea. The terms of that exchange is you own up to the admission, but the reality is hardly so simple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #16 June 16, 2011 QuoteSo you have an American abroad acting as as a logistics clerk for an enemy force. This is another part of the case I don't understand. If his alleged crimes were committed on British soil, what accounts for the British decision to extradite him but not prosecute him themselves?"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 June 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo you have an American abroad acting as as a logistics clerk for an enemy force. This is another part of the case I don't understand. If his alleged crimes were committed on British soil, what accounts for the British decision to extradite him but not prosecute him themselves? It could have been done on either English or American soil, but since he is an American, they sent him to us. (maybe more practically, cheaper to send him, then to try him and jail him) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #18 June 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteaccused doesn't mean guilty... No, but an admission of guilt does. People plead guilty to things they didn't do all the time. Yep, happens every day. But, in the eyes of the courts and the law, once you plead guilty...you're guilty whether your reason was to avoid a possible lengthy jail sentence or because you really are guilty and want to shorten your sentence.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #19 June 16, 2011 QuoteBefore 9/11, it looked like a silent cold war with China would become more prominent. Actually in dealing with cold (or hot) war with an established, recognized, entrenched power like China, I can see the arguments for secrecy. If the government has technological know-how that they don't want China to know about, I can see that a trial where such information is revealed would be a problem. But a terrorist isn't trying to win through technological superiority. Bin Laden nearly brought down a nuclear superpower with a few box cutters. A terrorist attempts to destroy innocent people through low tech techniques, fear, and secrecy. Reducing the atmosphere of secrecy and fear is the right approach in such a case. We need to distinguish between terrorists--who seem to seek only to destroy and don't care much if they destroy themselves in the process--and traditional enemies/opponents who may wish ill of us but still want their own countries to be strong."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbrown 0 #20 June 17, 2011 Bin Laden nearly brought down a nuclear superpower with a few box cutters.Quote Uhmm.., no he didn't. Even if it was Bin Laden the attack of 9=11 didn't even come close to bringing down the US. Try a Grip. A grip on reality. Peace, Jim B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #21 June 17, 2011 QuoteEven if it was Bin Laden the attack of 9=11 didn't even come close to bringing down the US. I was mainly referring to the dollar cost: http://threetrilliondollarwar.org/ Of course, bin Laden had nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq. But he created an atmosphere of fear in which people thought 9/11 and Iraq were connected--and that fear nearly destroyed the US economically. Whether all this was bin Laden's original intent, I do not know."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #22 June 17, 2011 QuoteBin Laden nearly brought down a nuclear superpower with a few box cutters.Quote Uhmm.., no he didn't. Even if it was Bin Laden the attack of 9=11 didn't even come close to bringing down the US. Try a Grip. A grip on reality. Peace, Jim B Get a grip of your own. He might not have brought us down but for a few days afterwards he shut down the markets and the airlines. Not bad for a rich turbinhead.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #23 June 17, 2011 QuoteNo, but an admission of guilt does. an admission of guilt is NOT necessarily guilty - you should probably brush up on your legal jargon..... an 10th grader would know that. An admission of guilt after years of solitary is about as useful as an admission of guilt after torture. it was a 'plea bargain', which means guilt was admitted, but not proven in any way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #24 June 17, 2011 QuoteGet a grip of your own. He might not have brought us down but for a few days afterwards he shut down the markets and the airlines. Not bad for a rich turbinhead. Ummm, once again, Bin Laden did NOT shut down anything - the US government shut down the airlines, closed all the airspace and GA for 9 or 10 days. paranoia and fear caused all the after-effects - all in the name of 'freedom' The US could have chosen to change nothing, but instead we have wars and the Patriot Act, ongoing fear-mongers - apparently you are one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #25 June 17, 2011 Quote Quote No, but an admission of guilt does. an admission of guilt is NOT necessarily guilty - you should probably brush up on your legal jargon..... an 10th grader would know that. An admission of guilt after years of solitary is about as useful as an admission of guilt after torture. it was a 'plea bargain', which means guilt was admitted, but not proven in any way. Yes, I know that. If you had read my second post you would have realized that. But then, it is quite probable the concept would have evaded you. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
