Don't dare discipline your children...

[wildcard451 0]

WTF?

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=8195860&rss=rss-ktrk-article-8195860

[sacex250 0]

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Don't dare discipline your children...

Wow, overreact much?

The law is pretty clear in most states that if discipline of a child causes traumatic injury then it constitutes abuse. Obviously, if a third-party notices marks on a child from parent-iniflicted trauma then there's obviously something more going on there than just normal "disciplining."

As usual, there's probably more to this case than what was reported in this oh-so-brief article.

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[billvon 3,076]

I think spanking a child hard enough to result in a trip to the hospital might just be a problem. While corporal punishment for small children sometimes make sense, there are also limits to how much you can hurt them.

[oldwomanc6 60]

I guess a lot of it would depend on what you would define as "traumatic".

When my daughter was a pre-schooler, I walked into the room where she was, as she was starting to put a set of keys into an outlet, I launched myself at her. I took her down. We both had quite a few bruises (understatement).

The outlet was smoking, the key was bent, and it left a huge black mark on the wall. My daughter was screaming, (so was I as I leapt at her).

Is that abuse? She was definitely traumatized! We were both black and blue.

If traumatization is the go to jail card, I guess I'd be there.

All I can say is: She never tried that again.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[MBiegs 0]

Intent is important... if you launched yourself at her with the intent to cause substantial injury, it's abuse. If you launched yourself at her knowing you could injure her but attempting to prevent a more severe injury, it's not abuse.

Back to the original story, there is probably more to it then what the news reports, but if you are spanking so hard that you have left marks that don't go away quickly, you're probably doing it wrong. If you leave discipline marks on your kid, you're probably going to get in trouble.

[Gravitymaster 0]

How is this an over-reaction. The point of the article wasn't that you don't spank your child hard enough to cause traumatic injury, leave bruises or marks. The point was the Judge said,

"You don't spank children today. In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don't spank children. You understand?"

Nowhere in the article does it say there was any traumatic injury, just that the grandmother noticed some red marks and took the kid to the hospital. Maybe she thought the kid had poison ivy. In this case, it's the Judge that doesn't understand.

Likely your typical granola munching lefty who took a pop-psych course as an elective in college.

[sfzombie 3]

just another case where the government should get the f___ out of our business. back when i grew up and got spanked, even in school, there was no such thing as a school shooting. the teachers actually had some semblance of discipline and it was comparitively safe to go to school.

http://kitswv.com

[wmw999 2,545]

When I worked for Texas Child Welfare (a long time ago), a spanking that left a mark that lasted, whether red or black-and-blue, was considered a defining element of reportable abuse.

I too think there's more to the story (there are plenty of Texas parents who spank their children), but maybe they're not for public consumption.

The judge's statement is his own; it's not part of canon, and doesn't reflect Texas law as far as I know.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Shotgun 1]

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back when i grew up and got spanked, even in school, there was no such thing as a school shooting.

I'm pretty sure school shootings have nothing to do with a lack of spanking.

Anyhow, I find the judge's remarks (if the news report is correct) to be a bit odd, seeing as spanking is not illegal in Texas.

[sacex250 0]

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Nowhere in the article does it say there was any traumatic injury, just that the grandmother noticed some red marks and took the kid to the hospital. Maybe she thought the kid had poison ivy. In this case, it's the Judge that doesn't understand.

The traumatic injury is the red marks. "Trauma" is physical injury as opposed to medical illness.

The fact that the grandmother brought the kid to hospital for them should prove the point.

I wouldn't consider what the Judge said a legal opinion, I would consider it a lecture to a defendent who's just been sentenced to five years probation for beating/injuring her child.

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I've never seen a child spanked when it didn't leave a red mark. That's the whole point. Had the child had bruises, I would have a different opinion.

Perhaps the mother can learn from this and use a rubber hose next time.

[billvon 3,076]

>"You don't spank children today. In the old days, maybe we got spanked,
>but there was a different quarrel. You don't spank children. You
>understand?"

I've heard judges say things to plea-bargaining drunk drivers like "you don't drink and drive ever again. Period. Do I make myself clear?"

I think most intelligent people would realize they are not saying that the new standard for BAC limits is anything over 0.00. They are saying that someone who has been caught drinking and driving better never, ever do that again.

Likewise, I can see a judge saying "you don't spank children, period" to a woman whose child had to be taken to the hospital because of a spanking.

>Nowhere in the article does it say there was any traumatic injury, just that
>the grandmother noticed some red marks and took the kid to the
>hospital. Maybe she thought the kid had poison ivy.

Right. Maybe next time she will have fallen down the stairs, or walked into a door.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Perhaps. Poorly written article, though. I'd like to know if this mother has any other children and if there's ever been any issues with them. I agree, there's probably more to this story for it to get to court. I wonder what the medical report from the hospital concluded?

[sfzombie 3]

and i'm pretty sure that lack of discipline is exactly what causes things like school shootings. most parents don't teach their children consequences of their actions or any other values. since this society is so stuck on being non-ofensive to everything, nobody else teaches them anything. it really does take a village to raise a child, and as a village, we are all failing. miserably.

http://kitswv.com

[billvon 3,076]

>and i'm pretty sure that lack of discipline is exactly what causes things
>like school shootings.

The worst school massacre in the US happened in 1927. The University of Texas shootings (16 dead) happened in 1966. I don't think any of this is new.

>most parents don't teach their children consequences of their actions
>or any other values.

Most parents I know do that - and most do it without hitting their kids.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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and i'm pretty sure that lack of discipline is exactly what causes things like school shootings. most parents don't teach their children consequences of their actions or any other values. since this society is so stuck on being non-ofensive to everything, nobody else teaches them anything. it really does take a village to raise a child, and as a village, we are all failing. miserably.

The US Secret Service doesn't really agree with you when they researched this in 2002.

It isn't a lack of discipline, it is a lack of belonging.

Interesting side note is the increase in school shootings coincides with the increase in anti-depressant use in teenagers.

[sfzombie 3]

http://southernoklahoma.com/schoolshootings/
from 1927 to 1985, only one of the shootings was enacted by a student under the age of 18. from 1987 to the present, most of the shootings were enacted by juveniles.
and you can say that most parents you know don't need to hit their children to teach them consequences, and you can even believe it, but that doesn't make it true. up to a certain age, children don't have the concept of cause and effect, the only things they can respond to is positive and negative physical stimulus, or pain and pleasure. it's an instinctive reaction that helps propogate our species.

http://kitswv.com

[billvon 3,076]

>from 1927 to 1985, only one of the shootings was enacted by a student
>under the age of 18. from 1987 to the present, most of the shootings
>were enacted by juveniles.

Perhaps too many kids are being spanked, then. From the APA:

=================
. . .adolescents who were more likely to engage in fighting, bullying, and victimization of others reported that their parents engaged in corporal punishment as a disciplining method. These findings suggest that perceived parental disapproval of violence may serve as a protective factor against violent behavior among adolescents. Alternatively, parental use of corporal punishment may pose a risk for violent behaviors among youth.
================



>up to a certain age, children don't have the concept of cause and effect,
>the only things they can respond to is positive and negative physical
>stimulus, or pain and pleasure.

It's extremely safe to say that that statement is entirely wrong. It's even wrong in several places within the one sentence, which is impressive, to wit:

1) If children did not have the concept of cause and effect, then they would not respond to ANY effect, period, whether painful or not.

2) Children understand cause and effect starting around six months, and have a comprehensive understanding at age 3. Parents who spank babies younger than six months due to misbehavior should probably not be parents anyway.

3) Anyone who has dealt with young children knows that they react quite strongly to punishments based on denial of desired objects/activities, and immediately show behaviors intended to avoid those punishments.

[sfzombie 3]

you can tell me how wrong i am all day long and it doesn't change the fact that until spanking was taken out of schools around 1983 or so in wv, that kids weren't shooting each other in school. that's a fact. it may not be the cause of it, but it cannot be changed by you or anyone else.
and as to the statement you disagree with, i hold it to be true, and it isn't wrong several times within the sentence. you need to re-read it, they don't have a concept of cause and effect, only pain and pleasure until they're about 2 years old. i base this not on any studies, but simply on observation.
you can get a study to say anything you want and support this with statiscs and "facts", i am basing my opinions on observations.
if you were to believe scientific studies, then you'd stil think eggs are bad for you, no wait they're not anymore. or coffee is bad for you, no wait, not anymore. or flouride is good for you when added to drinking water, no wait it's not anymore. etc....

http://kitswv.com

[billvon 3,076]

>it doesn't change the fact that until spanking was taken out of schools
>around 1983 or so in wv, that kids weren't shooting each other in school.
>that's a fact.

It's actually not a fact; it's truthy.

=============
Oct. 23, 1985: The dean of Bates College in Maine is shot in the back by a sniper while standing in his kitchen in a house just off campus. The dean survives the shooting, and the captain of the school's swim team is arrested in connection with the incident.

Feb. 22, 1978: After being taunted for his beliefs, a 15-year-old self-proclaimed Nazi, kills one student and wounds a second with a Luger-style pistol in Lansing, Mich.

Dec. 30, 1974: In Olean, N.Y., Anthony Barbaro, a 17-year-old Regents scholar armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.

May 4, 1970: Four students are killed and nine wounded when National Guard soldiers attempt to control an antiwar demonstration at Ohio's Kent State University.

Jan. 17, 1969: Two students are shot and killed at the University of California-Los Angeles during a student meeting.

Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman climbs atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31 during a 96-minute rampage.
=============

>you need to re-read it, they don't have a concept of cause and effect,
>only pain and pleasure until they're about 2 years old.

Then you do not understand the phrase "cause and effect."

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

you can tell me how wrong i am all day long and it doesn't change the fact that until spanking was taken out of schools around 1983 or so in wv, that kids weren't shooting each other in school. that's a fact. it may not be the cause of it, but it cannot be changed by you or anyone else.
and as to the statement you disagree with, i hold it to be true, and it isn't wrong several times within the sentence. you need to re-read it, they don't have a concept of cause and effect, only pain and pleasure until they're about 2 years old. i base this not on any studies, but simply on observation.
you can get a study to say anything you want and support this with statiscs and "facts", i am basing my opinions on observations.
if you were to believe scientific studies, then you'd stil think eggs are bad for you, no wait they're not anymore. or coffee is bad for you, no wait, not anymore. or flouride is good for you when added to drinking water, no wait it's not anymore. etc....

Your observations seem to be based on personal experiences and surely do not have any value except for yourself.

Spanking, beating a kid - especially the very young ones - is just an evidence of incapacity.

Only an idiot would compare little kids to eggs or coffee.

I just do hope you have no kids.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jclalor 12]

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WTF?

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=8195860&rss=rss-ktrk-article-8195860

Discipline or beating to the point of leaving a mark? What a misleading title. Many ways to discipline without leaving a mark.

What a world we live in; you can't beat or even sell your Daughter into slavery.

It's refreshing to see a part of the Texas judicial system not in the stone age.

[yourmomma 0]

That's right!! I brought 'em into this world. I'll take 'em out, make another looks just like 'em! Thank you happy Bill Cosbey