lawrocket 3 #26 July 16, 2011 [B]Denial of the Week: Vapor Pressure There's a heat wave approaching the Midwest. As we have been told by researchers and echoed on the news, increasing temperatures increase the ability of the air to hold moisture, leading to blizzards. I predict that a blizzard won't happen. A couple of weeks ago it was 106 here. The dew point was at 34 degrees and relative humidity was in the low teens. I concluded that the data was untrustworhy and it was, in fact pouring rain because warmer air means more water vapor could be held and therefore increased precipitation. I finally concluded that Lake Effect snow is "Special Effect" snow. Arctic air blowing over Lake Erie cannot, in fact, hold moisture. Warm weather = more snow and rain. Cold weather = less snow and rain. So we've been told. So I'll play denier and deny this. A denier alleges the effects of a vapor pressure gradient (and thus the laws of thermodynamics). I think that The laws of thermodynamics exist. And are natural. Their effects are small and large. Harmful and beneficial. That's my denial of the week. I deny that warmer air temperatures mean blizzards. Instead, I allege that we must have cold air to cause snow. And the colder the air gets the more precipitation occurs (until about -40 - then vapor's precipitated out). And that really bad snows need really big pressure gradients with one side really cold. Is that good denying? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #27 July 16, 2011 QuoteIs that good denying? In an infinite universe, I wouldn't play such a fool... The Shape of My Heart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQTXs8D8f3cYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #28 July 16, 2011 >As we have been told by researchers and echoed on the news, increasing >temperatures increase the ability of the air to hold moisture . . . . Right. >leading to blizzards. ?? A blizzard is air giving UP moisture, not holding more. >Is that good denying? Well, your premise is wrong. (Which I suppose actually makes it a pretty good denial.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #29 July 16, 2011 Quote Well, your premise is wrong. (Which I suppose actually makes it a pretty good denial.) Eh, hem...How's that supression goin'?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #30 July 16, 2011 Quote>As we have been told by researchers and echoed on the news, increasing >temperatures increase the ability of the air to hold moisture . . . . Right. I agree. There is nothing wrong with this statement. What I was pointing out is that while warm air CAN hold more moisture, it's only when there is a vapor pressure gradient that the air DOES hold more moisture. Such as the requirement for Lake Effect snow of air being more than 13 degrees C COLDER than the body of water. Yet google "snowmageddon global warming denier" and see how Quote>leading to blizzards. ?? A blizzard is air giving UP moisture, not holding more. Yes. And an air masss holding water vapor ain't gonna release it until it gets cold. http://www.americanprogress.org/pr/2010/02/pr20100216 Take a look at this. It's being explained as something as simple as warm-air-means-more-moisture-so-global-warming-means-more-blizzards. I myself bought it for a while and read up on it. That's when I stumbled across Lake Effect Snow. And, by golly by gee, the colder it is the worse it gets. Because TEMPERATURE isn't the dominant factor of how much water vapor air is holding. Vapor pressure is the dominant factor. Hence the reason why it is 120 degrees at Lake Mead and there will be 15 percent relative humidity. So, yes, warmer air has a higher saturation vapor pressure. BUT - warmer air does not mean it is HOLDING more water vapor. Furthermore, even if it is holding more water vapor it won't release it UNLESS it hits cold. You are right - it is a release of energy. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is tha energy travels from heat to cold. Precipitation happens when the energy of the system gets moved to the colder air mass. The warmer a system is, the more water vapor can be held. BUT - there's a gradient. QuoteWell, your premise is wrong I know. But I just thought I'd take a statement such as "global warming means more moisture in air, leading to blizzards" and take it reductio ad absurdum. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites