Awesome things "god" does.

[devildog 0]

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And not nearly as many Christian were killed for their belief in the first century as you would like to think.

How many Christians do I think were killed in the first century?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jaybird18c 24]

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And not nearly as many Christian were killed for their belief in the first century as you would like to think.

Question: "Does the Bible record the death of the apostles? How did each of the apostles die?"

Foxe's Book of Martyrs

[billvon 2,998]

>I'm not saying people won't die for something not true, but in their minds, they
>believe it to be true.

If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.

[maadmax 0]

If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.

[kallend 2,027]

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If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.

It would be informative if we could talk to one of them before they blew themselves up and see what they really thought. From what I hear they are expecting trumped up rewards in heaven. Christians died at the hands of others in an attempt to spread the message of God's love. Interesting that you would equate the two.

[popsjumper 2]

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Where shall I begin..?
One's 'belief' in something has no effect on its reality either.

As sure as Christians are that there is a god, I am sure there is not.
it is not that Atheists do not believe, or do not have a belief system, I believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses. I also believe man needs to believe in something other than life and death..... otherwise it would make no sense....or would it.

I believe in evolution. Did we come from apes? I don't know, and I really don't care, but I do know that natural selection selects for the fittest traits for the environment.

The Bible, written and interpreted by men, men who lie all the time, and have shown time and time again that they will lie in order to control the masses.

And, personally, if I were to choose a god to believe in, it would not be the jealous god of the bible. I would not have a beer with him, I would not friend him on facebook, sounds like a bully to me. The one who loves yet threatens with hell-fire-and-brimstone. The one who has an exclusive club. One that excludes, good, honest, loving people -out of jealousy. The one that give you a place in his party just for believing, regardless of actions (how convenient); you know, Jeffery Dahmer was 'saved', whew, thank god.

I had a friend come to me "worried" about my spirituality and salvation, I said "why, I'm not". I don't even think about it. I am worried about those people who are dying of starvation, genocide and war. Worry about them; I'm fine.

My 5 year-old put it beautifully when he asked me about god, he said, "he's like Santa Clause" I said, "exactly".

You see, I respect my friends enough to NOT tell my son that I believe they are wrong about god, nor do I try to indoctrinate their children towards my beliefs. Respectfully, I tell him that god is what some people believe, others believe differently.

So, it is not that we don't believe, it is that we believe differently.

Unbelievable!
Somebody with some maturity and common sense posting a real opinion without the vitriol espoused by the rest of you guys arguing about who is right and who is wrong.

The one post of discussion among all the BS arguing.

It was worth it to drag my sorry eyes through this entire thread to find this one gem.



The discussion bar has been set, guys...are you up for it?
My money is on NO.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[maadmax 0]

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us. To see oursels as others see us.", Robert Burns.

[Meso 38]

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It would be informative if we could talk to one of them before they blew themselves up and see what they really thought.

Nice trolling...

It's ignorant to associate every Muslim, or even the majority of Muslims with militant violence. That's such a tiny fraction and to think otherwise is just false. With over 2 million Muslims in the U.S, I'd like to see the amount which 'blow themselves up'.

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From what I hear they are expecting trumped up rewards in heaven. Christians died at the hands of others in an attempt to spread the message of God's love. Interesting that you would equate the two.

And Christians aren't expecting that? Maybe you should read your bible some more. The bible uses the same incentives. And it was definitely a big thing in 'Sunday School' where they would reference how if you believe you will be given crowns of gold in heaven for your good acts on earth.

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1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

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Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

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Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

Revelation 21 also talks about heaven being made of pearls and gold and other gems.

It is clear that heaven works on the same rewards principle as Islam. Do good things, be rewarded with gold streets and beautiful cities of gems and be given riches.

Now I can already picture that in true Christian nature some may try the "It's supposed to be metaphorical", but that argument can be used for any religion offering the same 'rewards' in heaven. The virgins could represent the untouched and pure nature of Allah. Both religions clearly offer the idea of incentives for getting into heaven.

So the idea that Christians died solely to spread the message is no way supported by biblical promises.

[Coreece 190]

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Nice trolling...

Laughable...any idiot could see that BV was the obvious troll in this episode...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[devildog 0]

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>I'm not saying people won't die for something not true, but in their minds, they
>believe it to be true.

If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.

Here's the difference, and it's a big one. Muslisms today do not fully know, assuming they are wrong, that they are indeed lying / mistaken. They are removed from the events they are preaching by over a thousand years. In fact, it wouldn't matter even if they were removed just by a day.

First generation Christians in question, would knowingly be lying and dying about something they claimed to see with their very own eyes (the miracles and Resurrection of Christ). They would be going around preaching, writing, and saying, "I saw this man die and rise from the dead," all the while KNOWING they did not ever, ever, EVER see such a thing. Moreover, to the original aim at this, they would be being tortured and put to death knowing they made it up (because, according to some, they added miracles & magic to compete with the OT).

So, in short, religious people today could easily be mistaken but strong in their convictions to the point of death because they don't actually know they're wrong. First generation Christians were a totally different sort.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[kallend 2,027]

We are, of course, removed from 1st generation Christians by rather more than 1000 years and the objective evidence for what they claim to have seen or even that they wrote these stories, is very sketchy indeed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Meso 38]

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Laughable...any idiot could see that BV was the obvious troll in this episode...

It's not trolling if you state something that holds truth and that is your opinion.

It is trolling when you say something completely stupid that holds no relation to fact, just to provoke a negative response.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to try get someone banned for that kind of trolling. But it's weak to troll in discussion threads.

Of course, I may be completely wrong and he may actually believe that the vast majority of Muslims blow themselves up, but hey - then there'd be bigger worries than me being wrong.

[RonD1120 62]

The message of God's love is not what you think. It is not love me or I will make you suffer forever. That is the job of wives.

God's message of love is this. There is a path to pain and darkness. There is a path to joy and light. If you want the latter you must flip the switch. Your choice, no more no less. He instructs you where to find the switch and how to operate it. If you want to turn on the light you must follow the instructions.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[devildog 0]

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We are, of course, removed from 1st generation Christians by rather more than 1000 years and the objective evidence for what they claim to have seen or even that they wrote these stories, is very sketchy indeed.

Actually, it's not. The finer details you could argue over, but there's no doubt whatsoever that they truly believed a guy named Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. If you are going bring such an insurmountable burden of proof for that, you might as well throw out everything we know about history. The fact remains, it's absurd to think that first generation Christians knowingly made up such a story and stuck with it to their death.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[kallend 2,027]

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The fact remains, it's absurd to think that first generation Christians knowingly made up such a story and stuck with it to their death.

No it isn't. Just about every religion has had its martyrs, yet according to you all religions but yours involve made-up stories.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JeanJeanie 0]

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>I'm not saying people won't die for something not true, but in their minds, they
>believe it to be true.

If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.

Or maybe they are more "sure"; they are definitely more committed. I am struck by the power of a community that stops for prayer, in unison, 6 times per day. To be respected, even by an atheist.

~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK

[jaybird18c 24]

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And Christians aren't expecting that? Maybe you should read your bible some more. The bible uses the same incentives. And it was definitely a big thing in 'Sunday School' where they would reference how if you believe you will be given crowns of gold in heaven for your good acts on earth.

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1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Quote

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

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Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

Revelation 21 also talks about heaven being made of pearls and gold and other gems.

It is clear that heaven works on the same rewards principle as Islam. Do good things, be rewarded with gold streets and beautiful cities of gems and be given riches.

So the idea that Christians died solely to spread the message is no way supported by biblical promises.

Heaven is not a place to be desired because of gates of pearl or streets of gold. Will there be rewards in heaven? Sure. No one knows exactly what that will be. However, even that is not the motivation for the Christian life. The motivation for the Christian life is to be in the presence of Jesus. Heaven is heaven because God is there. As Paul Washer often says, everybody wants to go to heaven. It's just that most people do not want God to be there when they arrive. They want the rewards and pleasure of heaven. However, they rebel against the idea of submitting to God's holiness. There are all sorts of movies/TV shows that depict this. In the end (e.g. "Ghost" with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore; The Ghost Whisperer), the person sees "the light" and goes off to a "better place" "just over the hill." There is rarely an encounter with God. There's a reason for that. Again, as Paul Washer often says, if that unrighteous person stands in the presence of a thrice holy God who is perfectly and infinitely righteous and "just" and that person is found guilty, he/she will melt away as though they were standing in front of a blast furnace. The unrepentant sinner certainly does have much to fear. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. That is, "unless" that person is instead "seen as" righteous based on the work of Jesus Christ. God is also perfectly compassionate, patient, kind, loving, trustworthy, slow to anger, etc. One who repents and places his/her trust in Him, will in fact be rewarded. Maybe not in this life. This life may be consumed with suffering for His name. However, the motivation for the Christian life again stems from the fact that we have been forgiven by a very "good" God and we will get to spend an eternity with Him. One should be terrified of hell but that's not the reason to turn to God. One should turn to Him because He has been so kind to save you from hell. All this focus on rewards is very shallow thinking. Really, who wouldn't get tired of "stuff" and places after an eternity? Instead, the Christian can look forward to spending an eternity trying to fathom (which can never be fully accomplished) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[JeanJeanie 0]

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The fact remains, it's absurd to think that first generation Christians knowingly made up such a story and stuck with it to their death.

Why is it absurd? Does this sound familiar?
TIME TO DIE FOR GOD
Or
ARMAGEDDON WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?

"We are at the end of an Age. As was prophesied, this is the "judgment time" for all living creatures on or related to this planet – in other words, the time when "where we find ourselves," as result of our accumulated choices during our time here, determines our Judgment. It is also possible that part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body, to the extent to be willing to leave it without any proof of the existence".
Does this sound familiar?
The rest of the story. . . . .
For years, they'd been hoping to return to the Kingdom of Heaven, which they called "Evolutionary Level Above Human," or the "Next Level." Day in, day out, the group — which they always said was not a cult but a "classroom for growing a soul" — had learned to transcend human existence through rigorous discipline. In preparation for the final step of leaving their human bodies, or "exiting their vehicles," the group assembled uniforms: matching black Nikes and homemade black pants and shirts, each adorned with a custom-made triangular patch that said "HEAVEN'S GATE AWAY TEAM." Rio, an artist in his human incarnation, designed the infamous patch, which was embroidered with the constellation Orion in the triangle's apex. They couldn't have been more excited about the trip some members took to Mexico to purchase enough phenobarbital to kill them all several times over.

On March 22, 1997, the bougainvillea were in full bloom as the group began executing "The Routine," a document they'd created that precisely choreographed how teams would help each other to wash down phenobarbital-laced helpings of applesauce and pudding with vodka. "Lie back and rest quietly," the ritual instructed, which they did, covered in purple shrouds, a $5 bill (and 3 quarters) tucked in their wallets, waiting for the "elixir of life" to cause drowsiness, then a coma, and finally a circulatory-system collapse. No one knows the exact timeline, but within three days, all the members of Heaven's Gate were dead.
The psychiatrist Marc Galanter argues that Applewhite and Nettles may have suffered from "the psychiatric syndrome of folie à deux, in which one partner draws the other into a shared system of delusion".

and now you know "the rest of the story. . . . "

Balch, Robert W. "Waiting for the Ships: Disillusionment and the Revitalization of Faith in Bo and Peep's UFO Cult." In James R. Lewis ed., The Gods Have Landed. Albany: State University of New York Press, 1995.

Balch, Robert W., and David Taylor. "Seekers and Saucers: The Role of the Cultic Milieu in Joining a UFO Cult." American Behavioral Scientist 20 (1977):839–860.

Galanter, Marc. "The Millennium Approaches." In Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion, 2nd edition. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999.

Lewis, James R. "Introduction." Cults in America. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 1998.

Wessinger, Catherine. How the Millennium Comes Violently: From Jonestown to Heaven's Gate. New York: Seven Bridges Press, 2000.

DENNIS D. STEWART CHERYL B. STEWART

Read more: Heaven's Gate - rituals, world, body, life, beliefs, time, person, human, The Followers, The Suicide, Differences from Other Forms of Cult Violence http://www.deathreference.com/Gi-Ho/Heaven-s-Gate.html#ixzz1TPbO9gRT

~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK

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[Coreece 190]

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I am struck by the power of a community that stops for prayer, in unison, 6 times per day. To be respected, even by an atheist.

Make up your mind already, would ya?

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do something about it "prayer without action, is MEANINGLESS".

You guys crack me up...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[JeanJeanie 0]

Who said they are not in action? I did say that I respect, I only ask the same.

j

~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK

[Coreece 190]

I just find your bias remarkable...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[normiss 803]

Right up there with the typical christian bias.
It's all good.

[maadmax 0]

It's ignorant to associate every Muslim, or even the majority of Muslims with militant violence. That's such a tiny fraction and to think otherwise is just false. With over 2 million Muslims in the U.S, I'd like to see the amount which 'blow themselves up'.

[normiss 803]

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"suffering & dying for their faith" muslims

In other words, the very small minority of Muslims the world over.
Pretty much exactly what Meso was stating.

[Coreece 190]

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"suffering & dying for their faith" muslims

In other words, the very small minority of Muslims the world over.
Pretty much exactly what Meso was stating.

g

who do you think Billvon was talking about?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...