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kallend 2,027
QuoteYou don't have an invisible psychotic bipolar sadistic egomaniacal friend like he does? For shame.
Interesting projection paradox. It is hard not to notice that when some look at God, all they can see is a reflection of themselves.
Apparently the definition of "invisible" is hard for you to comprehend.
Besides, I haven't commanded any massacres or condemned anyone to an eternity of suffering for not worshipping me.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteHmm.... Yes, it makes perfect sense to use Bible quotes to try to prove something to an atheist.
One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?
Where shall I begin..?
One's 'belief' in something has no effect on its reality either.
As sure as Christians are that there is a god, I am sure there is not.
it is not that Atheists do not believe, or do not have a belief system, I believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses. I also believe man needs to believe in something other than life and death..... otherwise it would make no sense....or would it.
I believe in evolution. Did we come from apes? I don't know, and I really don't care, but I do know that natural selection selects for the fittest traits for the environment.
The Bible, written and interpreted by men, men who lie all the time, and have shown time and time again that they will lie in order to control the masses.
And, personally, if I were to choose a god to believe in, it would not be the jealous god of the bible. I would not have a beer with him, I would not friend him on facebook, sounds like a bully to me. The one who loves yet threatens with hell-fire-and-brimstone. The one who has an exclusive club. One that excludes, good, honest, loving people -out of jealousy. The one that give you a place in his party just for believing, regardless of actions (how convenient); you know, Jeffery Dahmer was 'saved', whew, thank god.
I had a friend come to me "worried" about my spirituality and salvation, I said "why, I'm not". I don't even think about it. I am worried about those people who are dying of starvation, genocide and war. Worry about them; I'm fine.
My 5 year-old put it beautifully when he asked me about god, he said, "he's like Santa Clause" I said, "exactly".
You see, I respect my friends enough to NOT tell my son that I believe they are wrong about god, nor do I try to indoctrinate their children towards my beliefs. Respectfully, I tell him that god is what some people believe, others believe differently.
So, it is not that we don't believe, it is that we believe differently.
devildog 0
The Pope hardly represents every Christian out there, nor does the Pope speak for all theological interpretations throughout time.Quote>The entire church never, ever insisted as a whole on any such thing.
The Pope, representing the entire Catholic Church, did indeed just that. Pope Clement VIII declared Bruno guilty and recommended the death penalty, which the court (composed exclusively of Inquisition Cardinals) carried out. He was burned at the stake as a heretic.
edit: And since we're talking Gen 1, the Pope really has no bearing on the Jewish view(s) of it either.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
devildog 0
So, question... When the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old, and they had to meet in secret, were stoned, crucified, torn apart by lions, lit on fire as human torches, stabbed, beaten, etc. do you really think the entire time they were talking they were like, "Man, this is the best power grab ever!"QuoteI believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
DanG 1
Quote...or condemned anyone to an eternity of suffering for not worshipping me.
That there's your problem. Start doing that and millions of people will love you unquestioningly.
- Dan G
normiss 805
Now that's just plain funny.
jaybird18c 24
QuoteSo, question... When the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old, and they had to meet in secret, were stoned, crucified, torn apart by lions, lit on fire as human torches, stabbed, beaten, etc. do you really think the entire time they were talking they were like, "Man, this is the best power grab ever!"QuoteI believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses.
Very good point.
Coreece 190
QuoteThe Bible, written and interpreted by men, men who lie all the time, and have shown time and time again that they will lie in order to control the masses.
That may have been Constantine's idea, but that was not the original purpose.
QuoteMy 5 year-old put it beautifully when he asked me about god, he said, "he's like Santa Clause" I said, "exactly".
I wonder what he's gonna think when he finds out that Santa actaully was real. It's just that overtime, people made him into something they wanted him to be, rather than who he actually was...sorta like what Constantine did with God.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
jclalor 12
,QuoteWhen the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old
Your statement is misleading at best, a "Few years old"
Paul, who never met Jesus, first letter was at around 20 after the of death Jesus. Mark, the first gospel, was written 20 years after Paul and Matthew and Luke 15-20 after Mark and John almost 65 years after the death of Jesus. Still know one knows who wrote the gospels.
Does anyone recall the Old Testament and how it was used to control the masses well before the Gnostics of the New Testament used oral tradition to tell the stories of Jesus? Why does this conversation begin at the New Testament.
If history serves us well, and I unfortunately believe it does, why wouldn't those who had been persecuted for so many years some up with something to validate their rights?
With regards to the New Testament, I should have said, "rewritten and bastardized by the powerful forces of the early church", Constantine being one of them in the 2nd Century. The beautiful beginnings of the Catholic Church. The perfected King James Bible, wasn't that the 1600's.
The first stories of the life of Jesus were not written, they were oral tradition, yes, told in secret with the earliest written in the late part of the 1st century. And yes, these storytellers were persecuted like anyone who seeks to change the long standing statue quo.
I do not challenge the stories of a cool dude, who gave these people a voice. But I BELIEVE THEY gave him magical qualities in order to compete with the Old Testament. Hell, magic worked for Moses.
I am not trying to convince anyone, nor sway anyone to my beliefs. I do not hang out with a bunch of Atheists on a weekly basis in order to gain validation for my beliefs. They were formed purely on my own after a long journey through life and "soul searching".
I do not accept the way things are in the world and justifying the suffering of many by referring a book, "oh see, the armies of the East are marching, just like in the Book". "Ohhhh ohhhhh the End Times are coming soon." If we all believed this way, yes, they would be coming soon; have you ever heard of a 'self-fulfilling prophesy?"
Don't pray for me, pray for those who have no food, water, basic rights, basic dignity that ALL deserve. Or better yet, do something about it "prayer without action, is MEANINGLESS".
I would rather be in action to make my world a better place for my son and the millions that had no choice of where they were born. I would rather work for HUMANITY, then to sit back and accept it because god said it would be so.
Remember Jesus, he said "heal yourselves" We have the power to change anything. It takes a powerful mind to imagine it and then to create it!
Peace and Love, Kumbaya........
If history serves us well, and I unfortunately believe it does, why wouldn't those who had been persecuted for so many years some up with something to validate their rights?
With regards to the New Testament, I should have said, "rewritten and bastardized by the powerful forces of the early church", Constantine being one of them in the 2nd Century. The beautiful beginnings of the Catholic Church. The perfected King James Bible, wasn't that the 1600's.
The first stories of the life of Jesus were not written, they were oral tradition, yes, told in secret with the earliest written in the late part of the 1st century. And yes, these storytellers were persecuted like anyone who seeks to change the long standing statue quo.
I do not challenge the stories of a cool dude, who gave these people a voice. But I BELIEVE THEY gave him magical qualities in order to compete with the Old Testament. Hell, magic worked for Moses.
I am not trying to convince anyone, nor sway anyone to my beliefs. I do not hang out with a bunch of Atheists on a weekly basis in order to gain validation for my beliefs. They were formed purely on my own after a long journey through life and "soul searching".
I do not accept the way things are in the world and justifying the suffering of many by referring a book, "oh see, the armies of the East are marching, just like in the Book". "Ohhhh ohhhhh the End Times are coming soon." If we all believed this way, yes, they would be coming soon; have you ever heard of a 'self-fulfilling prophesy?"
Don't pray for me, pray for those who have no food, water, basic rights, basic dignity that ALL deserve. Or better yet, do something about it "prayer without action, is MEANINGLESS".
I would rather be in action to make my world a better place for my son and the millions that had no choice of where they were born. I would rather work for HUMANITY, then to sit back and accept it because god said it would be so.
Remember Jesus, he said "heal yourselves" We have the power to change anything. It takes a powerful mind to imagine it and then to create it!
Peace and Love, Kumbaya........
~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK
QuoteQuote
I wonder what he's gonna think when he finds out that Santa actaully was real. It's just that overtime, people made him into something they wanted him to be, rather than who he actually was...sorta like what Constantine did with God.
Yes, Exactly, When he finds out that Santa Claus does not come down the chimney and eat all the cookies. "If you are good, he'll bring you presents, if you are bad, coal." "or in the worst case his henchman Swarte Piet will take the bad children to Spain!
Sound familiar? Control the masses........ start em when they're young.~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK
normiss 805
Quotesorta like what
Constantinechristians did with God
FIFY.
devildog 0
We have letter fragments showing exactly what early Christians believed far before anything in the NT. Even if you want to stick to just the Gospels, and even if you want to go at best 50-60 AD, that only reinforces my point. 15-25 years later, Christians persecution was far bloodier than it was in the beginning. So again, when the Gospels were written (not just talk in the beginning, which, btw, was the same message and had the same consequences), do you think the authors of those gospels, facing all sorts of torture and horrendous deaths, poverty, loss of family and freedom, were really thinking, "Man, what a great power grab!"Quote
,QuoteWhen the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old
Your statement is misleading at best, a "Few years old"
Paul, who never met Jesus, first letter was at around 20 after the of death Jesus. Mark, the first gospel, was written 20 years after Paul and Matthew and Luke 15-20 after Mark and John almost 65 years after the death of Jesus. Still know one knows who wrote the gospels.
Of course not. And its ludicrous to think so.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
maadmax 0
Where shall I begin..?
One's 'belief' in something has no effect on its reality either.
As sure as Christians are that there is a god, I am sure there is not.
it is not that Atheists do not believe, or do not have a belief system, I believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses. I also believe man needs to believe in something other than life and death..... otherwise it would make no sense....or would it.
I believe in evolution. Did we come from apes? I don't know, and I really don't care, but I do know that natural selection selects for the fittest traits for the environment.
The Bible, written and interpreted by men, men who lie all the time, and have shown time and time again that they will lie in order to control the masses.
And, personally, if I were to choose a god to believe in, it would not be the jealous god of the bible. I would not have a beer with him, I would not friend him on facebook, sounds like a bully to me. The one who loves yet threatens with hell-fire-and-brimstone. The one who has an exclusive club. One that excludes, good, honest, loving people -out of jealousy. The one that give you a place in his party just for believing, regardless of actions (how convenient); you know, Jeffery Dahmer was 'saved', whew, thank god.
I had a friend come to me "worried" about my spirituality and salvation, I said "why, I'm not". I don't even think about it. I am worried about those people who are dying of starvation, genocide and war. Worry about them; I'm fine.
My 5 year-old put it beautifully when he asked me about god, he said, "he's like Santa Clause" I said, "exactly".
You see, I respect my friends enough to NOT tell my son that I believe they are wrong about god, nor do I try to indoctrinate their children towards my beliefs. Respectfully, I tell him that god is what some people believe, others believe differently.
So, it is not that we don't believe, it is that we believe differently.
One's 'belief' in something has no effect on its reality either.
As sure as Christians are that there is a god, I am sure there is not.
it is not that Atheists do not believe, or do not have a belief system, I believe man wrote the bible in order to control the masses. I also believe man needs to believe in something other than life and death..... otherwise it would make no sense....or would it.
I believe in evolution. Did we come from apes? I don't know, and I really don't care, but I do know that natural selection selects for the fittest traits for the environment.
The Bible, written and interpreted by men, men who lie all the time, and have shown time and time again that they will lie in order to control the masses.
And, personally, if I were to choose a god to believe in, it would not be the jealous god of the bible. I would not have a beer with him, I would not friend him on facebook, sounds like a bully to me. The one who loves yet threatens with hell-fire-and-brimstone. The one who has an exclusive club. One that excludes, good, honest, loving people -out of jealousy. The one that give you a place in his party just for believing, regardless of actions (how convenient); you know, Jeffery Dahmer was 'saved', whew, thank god.
I had a friend come to me "worried" about my spirituality and salvation, I said "why, I'm not". I don't even think about it. I am worried about those people who are dying of starvation, genocide and war. Worry about them; I'm fine.
My 5 year-old put it beautifully when he asked me about god, he said, "he's like Santa Clause" I said, "exactly".
You see, I respect my friends enough to NOT tell my son that I believe they are wrong about god, nor do I try to indoctrinate their children towards my beliefs. Respectfully, I tell him that god is what some people believe, others believe differently.
So, it is not that we don't believe, it is that we believe differently.
EeeeeWeee, I would have no use for such a god either.
...
devildog 0
Aside from the fact that the Gospels don't read like myth in terms of how they are written (for example, any Jewish writer that wanted to invent a story and give it credibility, would never, ever, ever have women find Jesus first), you are contending that people knowingly made up a lie, for absolutely no gain, under penalty of torture and death. People just don't do that -- and they certainly don't do it with the consistency and numbers required to start and spread Christianity in the 1st century. I'm not saying people won't die for something not true, but in their minds, they believe it to be true. There's a difference. Your scenario would have people face the lions, the cross, the torches, beheadings, etc. all the while knowing, "I made this up," when all they would have to say is, "Maybe I'm wrong" to escape AND they have nothing to gain by lies. As we've so noted, early Christians had no power, no riches, didn't demand either from their followers (Paul actually writes that no one should ever say they are following him, or anyone else, etc.)QuoteThe first stories of the life of Jesus were not written, they were oral tradition, yes, told in secret with the earliest written in the late part of the 1st century. And yes, these storytellers were persecuted like anyone who seeks to change the long standing statue quo.
I do not challenge the stories of a cool dude, who gave these people a voice. But I BELIEVE THEY gave him magical qualities in order to compete with the Old Testament. Hell, magic worked for Moses.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
Coreece 190
QuoteDoes anyone recall the Old Testament and how it was used to control the masses well before the Gnostics of the New Testament used oral tradition to tell the stories of Jesus?
I don't think you meant to use the term Gnostics...did you? They were considered the false teachers of the day. Gnosticism has a negative connotation to Christianity.
QuoteWith regards to the New Testament, I should have said, "rewritten and bastardized by the powerful forces of the early church", Constantine being one of them in the 2nd Century. The beautiful beginnings of the Catholic Church.
You're not gonna get too many people 'round here sticking up for the Catholic Church...not even from the Catholics.
QuoteDon't pray for me, pray for those who have no food, water, basic rights, basic dignity that ALL deserve. Or better yet, do something about it "prayer without action, is MEANINGLESS".
I guess you never heard of missionaries and the churches that provide them the financial support to minister locally, nationally, and worldwide.
QuoteI would rather be in action to make my world a better place for my son and the millions that had no choice of where they were born. I would rather work for HUMANITY, then to sit back and accept it because god said it would be so.
Hey look...another strawman, where did he come from?
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
Gnostics were the first to pass down the oral tradition, that is what they were refered to as. They only became the anti Christian "Gnostics" you describe when choosing the books of the Bible. thus the beliefs in the "gnostic" bible we have today, are those who include the books of Judas, Mary et al.
J
J
~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK
Quote
I guess you never heard of missionaries and the churches that provide them the financial support to minister locally, nationally, and worldwide.
Yes, I have seen the great things missionaries have done down the entire coast of California and throughout Baja. I have only seen a few that don't attech "spreading the word of god". Mother Theresa's being one of them. But of course, people need to be ok with the miserable conditions in which they live.
~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK
Coreece 190
QuoteGnostics were the first to pass down the oral tradition, that is what they were refered to as. They only became the anti Christian "Gnostics" you describe when choosing the books of the Bible. thus the beliefs in the "gnostic" bible we have today, are those who include the books of Judas, Mary et al.
J
K.I.S.S - here's a concise look at gnosticism fyi:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
QuoteSo, question... When the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old, and they had to meet in secret, were stoned, crucified, torn apart by lions, lit on fire as human torches, stabbed, beaten, etc. do you really think the entire time they were talking they were like, "Man, this is the best power grab ever!"
Once a suppressed population has had enough and they have nothing left to lose, yes, they are willing to die.
Just as the protestors in Egypt, Tienanmen Square et al. have been willing to die in order to change the status quo. Change never comes without resistance.
jclalor 12
QuoteQuoteAside from the fact that the Gospels don't read like myth in terms of how they are written (for example, any Jewish writer that wanted to invent a story and give it credibility, would never, ever, ever have women find Jesus first), you are contending that people knowingly made up a lie, for absolutely no gain, under penalty of torture and death. People just don't do that -- and they certainly don't do it with the consistency and numbers required to start and spread Christianity in the 1st century. I'm not saying people won't die for something not true, but in their minds, they believe it to be true. There's a difference. Your scenario would have people face the lions, the cross, the torches, beheadings, etc. all the while knowing, "I made this up," when all they would have to say is, "Maybe I'm wrong" to escape AND they have nothing to gain by lies. As we've so noted, early Christians had no power, no riches, didn't demand either from their followers (Paul actually writes that no one should ever say they are following him, or anyone else, etc.)QuoteThe first stories of the life of Jesus were not written, they were oral tradition, yes, told in secret with the earliest written in the late part of the 1st century. And yes, these storytellers were persecuted like anyone who seeks to change the long standing statue quo.
I do not challenge the stories of a cool dude, who gave these people a voice. But I BELIEVE THEY gave him magical qualities in order to compete with the Old Testament. Hell, magic worked for Moses.
You do realize that most experts on the NT think the Gospels were written by Greek speaking non Jews. Not too many Jews speaking Greek, let alone writing it. No early manuscripts written in Aramaic have ever been found
And not nearly as many Christian were killed for their belief in the first century as you would like to think.
Quote
You do realize that most experts on the NT think the Gospels were written by Greek speaking non Jews. Not too many Jews speaking Greek, let alone writing it. No early manuscripts written in Aramaic have ever been found
And not nearly as many Christian were killed for their belief in the first century as you would like to think.
I think there were quite a few greek speaking jews in the diaspora. It is somewhat speculative if Jews or Gentiles wrote the gospels. I personally believe on the basis of informed inquiry that a Jew living in Egypt wrote the Gospel of John and that Matthew was also written by a Jew. There are a lot of different opinions though.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
devildog 0
They had nothing to lose? They had EVERYTHING to lose. Not only would these early Christians (who were Jews) have everything to lose from the Romans, but from their own people as well. Sorry, but saying these first generation Christians knowingly made up lies so they could be ostracized and killed by their own friends and family (who were likewise super oppressed, but somehow werent as desperate), goes against everything we know about human behavior.QuoteQuoteSo, question... When the first Christians were penning their letters to each other, going back and forth about an event just a few years old, and they had to meet in secret, were stoned, crucified, torn apart by lions, lit on fire as human torches, stabbed, beaten, etc. do you really think the entire time they were talking they were like, "Man, this is the best power grab ever!"
Once a suppressed population has had enough and they have nothing left to lose, yes, they are willing to die.
Just as the protestors in Egypt, Tienanmen Square et al. have been willing to die in order to change the status quo. Change never comes without resistance.
And to get back to the original point you made, saying they were desperate and looking to get away from persecution is moving the goal posts. Your claim was that they were making a power grab, which clearly, they were not. They gave up all hopes of power, riches, and life to follow a criminal that was disgraced and sentenced to death.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
And who else should they see?
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