Awesome things "god" does.

[jaybird18c 24]

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>Abraham was a prophet. God certainly spoke in audible clear language to him.

You said that if a voice told someone to take their kid, grab a weapon and head for the hills to sacrifice them, that such a voice "would be inconsistent with any principal derived from scripture." Yet that's exactly what God told Abraham per Genesis 22. So which is it? Could God have said that?

No. If he told "you", it would be inconsistent. The message God was speaking to Abraham was intended for Abraham....it can't be cut and pasted into a telegram to you.

[billvon 3,006]

>If he told "you", it would be inconsistent.

So telling Abraham to sacrifice his child IS consistent with principles derived from Scripture?

[jaybird18c 24]

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>If he told "you", it would be inconsistent.

So telling Abraham to sacrifice his child IS consistent with principles derived from Scripture?

No. God telling "you" to sacrifice your child would be inconsistent with any principal you might derive from scripture pertaining to you.

Dude, have you ever studied hermaneutics?

[freethefly 6]

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Now, God speaks to us through Scripture.

He must save a bundle on roaming fees.
I wonder if he feels like a Hip-Hop mogul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiD6Ozpv-xg&feature=player_embedded

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[billvon 3,006]

>No. God telling "you" to sacrifice your child would be inconsistent with any principal
>you might derive from scripture pertaining to you.

I didn't ask that. I asked you if God telling Abraham to sacrifice his child was consistent with principles derived from Scripture. Can you answer that question?

[jaybird18c 24]

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>No. God telling "you" to sacrifice your child would be inconsistent with any principal
>you might derive from scripture pertaining to you.

I didn't ask that. I asked you if God telling Abraham to sacrifice his child was consistent with principles derived from Scripture. Can you answer that question?

This started out as whether or not a principal could be derived from scripture that would apply to jclalor so that he could go out and kill his kid based on scripture. There is not. You've twisted it around to question Abraham's motive, I guess. Kind of retarded but we can talk about that also, if you'd like. I guess you'd say that the principal with regard to Abraham and his son is that the "wages of sin is death." "There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. The story of Abraham and his son (whom he did not kill, by the way) is really a type/shadow of Jesus Christ. It is a description of sin, it's cost, the unbelievable obedience of Abraham, and a substitute (the ram) provided by God himself. God preventing Abraham from sacrificing his son and killing the animal instead was really just the prelude to the story. Payment still had to be made on their behalf for those with faith to have a right standing before God. The Abraham story was fulflled much later in the person and work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I guess the other principal would be that if you would repent and place your faith in him, the benefit from that sacrifice could be also applied to your account. The same could be said of the whole story of the Passover as well.

[jaybird18c 24]

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How do you know when god is speaking to you?

My youngest son was born one week prior to my being deployed to Afghanistan in 2002. He was very sick the first couple months, could not eat or sleep very well, and suffered from severe projectile vomiting. The Pediatrician told my wife that he thought it was just acid reflux and they tried different things to make it better. Something just wasn’t right, though. Signs were overlooked and ignored. He was dehydrated, very underweight, pale, his hair wasn’t growing, and oddly even his fingernails/toenails weren’t growing like they should. Time went on and nobody slept. At two months old, he literally looked like he was going to die. The Pediatrician still insisted that it was reflux and was going to send my wife home with Jeffrey… again. However, an Intern who happened to go to Medical School with Ellen walked in and examined him. He talked the Pediatrician into doing an echo on Jeffrey. It turned out that my son actually had a congenital heart defect called Total Anomalous Pulmonary Venous Return (TAPVR). This is a correctable heart condition with a high success rate under normal conditions. It’s where the pulmonary veins, carrying oxygenated blood from the lungs, form a confluence and attach to the right atrium of the heart instead of the left, where it’s supposed to, so it can then be pumped to the left ventricle and out to the body. Instead, the only oxygenated blood transfer was taking place through a natural hole in the heart called the foramen ovale. That hole usually begins to close up on its own after the lungs begin to take over after birth. Therefore, Jeffrey was slowly suffocating. He was becoming very hypoxic and acidotic. His body was beginning to shut down non-essential functions. That’s why his hair and nails weren’t growing. Not long after being admitted, his kidneys were beginning to shut down. The normally high success rate in corrective surgery isn’t very high when the patient comes in under emergent conditions such as this one. The Physician gave Jeffrey only a 50% chance for survival. My wife was distraught and I was overseas. My team was in a rather isolated location but I received a message on our satellite communication radio. It told me that “Life expectancy was uncertain” and that I should return immediately. It took me two days to get back. I stopped at every phone I could along the way and fully expected to hear the bad news that my son was dead. My wife, on the other hand, was with my son who was literally dying before her eyes. The Surgeon gave her the permission forms to sign with these instructions. “You can either sign these now and we can go into surgery or your son will die.” She signed the forms. Surgery involved detaching and reattaching the pulmonary vein confluence to the left atrium so that normal blood circulation could resume. The scar tissue caused some irritability and he would have runs of supraventricular tachycardia (SVT). He also had such a small chest cavity and there was so much swelling that they had to leave his chest open with just a drape laid across. His kidney function also didn’t pick up for a while. He was on ECMO bypass for a while and there was danger of blood clots. Recovery seemed as dangerous as the surgery.

What I didn’t know at the time was that my Mother-in-law had spoken with my wife months before and told her of a dream she had. She said that her dream included a vision of Jeffrey who was sick and appeared to be very cold and lying in an adult sized hospital bed. My wife was furious when she told her. Ellen was already stressed beyond belief (she was still in Residency at the time dealing with all this and I was not there to help) going on no sleep and very little food. She hung up the phone on her and didn’t speak with her mother for some time. My Mother-in-law showed up at the hospital where Ellen was still waiting at my son’s bedside. Ellen had already forgotten the conversation. Her mother was stopped in her tracks as she entered the room. Since Jeffrey underwent cardiac surgery and was placed on full bypass, they had to greatly lower his temperature. He was very cold. He was obviously very sick with a bloody bandage draped across the opening in his chest that they had to leave open due to swelling. Several tubes circulating blood were coming out of his chest and he was intubated and on a ventilator. They didn’t have a pediatric bed available since it all happened so fast and they had to do emergency surgery. His tiny body was lying on an adult hospital bed. Her mother reminded her of the dream and their conversation. They both prayed to God for Jeffrey’s recovery. Then, as bad as everything looked, they both suddenly had a warm, peaceful, reassuring feeling come over them. No words were spoken or heard but it was impressed upon them both that everything would be alright. They both felt as though God was going to take care of Jeffrey. And He did!

As it turned out, Jeffrey eventually made a full recovery with no long term deficiency or compromise. That should not have been the case given the situation. His acid levels were so extreme that he should have at least been mentally retarded. That did not happen and he’s one of the smartest kids in my family. He was accepted at a large private school several years ago here in Dothan and placed higher than any kid ever had in his grade.

Now, was this a communication from God? I don’t know for sure but it seems that way. My wife and her mother are very convinced.

[billvon 3,006]

>You've twisted it around to question Abraham's motive, I guess.

No, the question isn't about motive or anything else. It's very simple. You said that if God told someone to kill their child that they would be crazy; it wouldn't be God because that's inconsistent with principles derived from Scripture. I asked if you thought the same thing about God's request to Abraham to kill HIS son, and you gave several reasons why that was OK.

That's inconsistent. If, as you say, there are good, valid reasons for God to ask someone to kill their child (i.e. description of sin, it's cost, obedience, the value of repentance etc) then you'd be inconsistent to claim that a command from God to kill one's child is not valid - since the Bible itself gives both those reasons and an example.

[freethefly 6]

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This started out as whether or not a principal could be derived from scripture that would apply to jclalor so that he could go out and kill his kid based on scripture.

Jclalor said no such thing about scripture.
What he did say:
So when God tells me that as a test of my faith, I should go grab the kid and a pick ax and head for the hills, and he'll explain the rest later, I should comply?

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You've twisted it around

Coming from you, the King of the Twist, that's funny.
However, please continue. Your delusion is highly entertaining.

I'm out of here for now. New battery in the bike. Going for a ride.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[stevebabin 0]

If I had an omnipotent imaginary friend who gave my son a fucked-up heart I'd be pissed!! You handled it a lot better than I would have(if I believed in all that religious crap)
Glad it all worked out for the little guy.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[maadmax 0]

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How do you know when god is speaking to you?

Speaking never. Notice I said communication. I know that your desire is not for dialog but for ridicule. That's OK, I would not really expect anything else. For me communication seems to be through my subconscious, or from the part of my brain that generates thoughts & ideas. Call it what you will, but so many times answers to problems emerged after prayer, that were so perfect so insightful and so beyond what I could have produced. All I could do was say THANK YOU GOD.

[maadmax 0]

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If I had an omnipotent imaginary friend who gave my son a fucked-up heart I'd be pissed!! You handled it a lot better than I would have(if I believed in all that religious crap)
Glad it all worked out for the little guy.

Which is why you sit confused and some do not. God created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it. Lovers of God do not get a special pass exempting them form the vicissitudes of life. God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

[stevebabin 0]

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If I had an omnipotent imaginary friend who gave my son a fucked-up heart I'd be pissed!! You handled it a lot better than I would have(if I believed in all that religious crap)
Glad it all worked out for the little guy.

Which is why you sit confused and some do not. God created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it. Lovers of God do not get a special pass exempting them form the vicissitudes of life. God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

I don't feel confused in the least...and I bet you don't feel delusional.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[JeanJeanie 0]

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No I was not saying they were more committed.

Oh, ok...so you didn't say this:

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they are definitely more committed.

This is getting bizzare...

Quoting directly from the exchange....

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B.V.
If willingness to endure persecution, injury and death determine the strength of one's belief, then nowadays it is pretty clearly Muslims who are leading in strength of belief.[/reply

my full answer

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Or maybe they are more "sure"; they are definitely more committed. I am struck by the power of a community that stops for prayer, in unison, 6 times per day. To be respected, even by an atheist.

Nowhere in this exchange were 'christians' referred to directly. But, if you would like my opinion, yes, I think they are more committed.
They hold their prayers in private, the ones I know and see daily, show kindness, not righteous condemnation.

Now, if you want to talk about bizarre, ok…….
then go back to our exchanges in #321, 323 & 324 regarding Matthew, Muslims style of prayer and people preaching on corners. ....

even more bizarre . . . .

But... whatever.

You have your beliefs, I have mine.

[jclalor 12]

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Now, was this a communication from God? I don’t know for sure but it seems that way. My wife and her mother are very convinced.

[JeanJeanie 0]

Why doesn't the forum have a 'like' button?

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If I had an omnipotent imaginary friend who gave my son a fucked-up heart I'd be pissed!! You handled it a lot better than I would have(if I believed in all that religious crap)
Glad it all worked out for the little guy.

Which is why you sit confused and some do not. God created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it. Lovers of God do not get a special pass exempting them form the vicissitudes of life. God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

I don't feel confused in the least...and I bet you don't feel delusional.

~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK

[Coreece 190]

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Nowhere in this exchange were 'christians' referred to directly.

Please, most of us here have an IQ above 70...

Are you able to compehend the chain of posts leading to your original reply?

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But, if you would like my opinion, yes, I think they are more committed.

So then did I read your mind, or did you just make it blatantly obvious?

I'm sure when you are not under the pressure of pride in an internet forum, you'd admit that there are some muslims who are more committed than christians, and some christians more commited that muslims....

...again, I find your bias quit remarkable.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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That's inconsistent. If, as you say, there are good, valid reasons for God to ask someone to kill their child (i.e. description of sin, it's cost, obedience, the value of repentance etc) then you'd be inconsistent to claim that a command from God to kill one's child is not valid - since the Bible itself gives both those reasons and an example.

You are missing the significance of the story...Abraham already had a direct, visible and audible relationship with God. God already told him that his offspring would be reckoned through Isaac, therefore there was no way Isaac could die. When Isaac asked Abraham "where is the lamb for the burnt offerring," He simply said "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering....

In addition to the faith and wisdom of Abraham, the significane of the story is that the Lord will provide...and that's exactly what Abraham named that place..."The Lord will Provide."
God promised to bless Abraham and multiply his offspring and through him all nations of the earth would be blessed because of his faith.

This story, like many others in the OT point to Jesus Christ.

God provided his only Son as the sacrificial lamb who took away the sin of the world...once and for all.

Anyone who understands would never be so ignorant to believe a copy cat demonic lie to kill thier child as if that could replace the once for all sacrafice of Christ.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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they both suddenly had a warm, peaceful, reassuring feeling come over them.

That's called God given faith, dog...fo real!

Thanks for sharing!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[maadmax 0]

Why doesn't the forum have a 'like' button?


You hit it, we all are just having some fun.

[winsor 236]

Now, was this a communication from God?

[winsor 236]

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If I had an omnipotent imaginary friend who gave my son a fucked-up heart I'd be pissed!! You handled it a lot better than I would have(if I believed in all that religious crap)
Glad it all worked out for the little guy.

Which is why you sit confused and some do not. God created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it. Lovers of God do not get a special pass exempting them form the vicissitudes of life. God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

That is in contention for the being the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I am impressed that anyone can even say something that stupid without appearing to be embarrassed.

[jakee 1,500]

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Lovers of God do not get a special pass exempting them form the vicissitudes of life.

How strange. Seemed like the entire point of Jay's story was that lovers of god do get a free pass.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[freethefly 6]

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God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

So, what is/was your almighty, loving God's intentions when he turned his back on the millions of children who have been raped, abused, starved to death, enslaved, murdered... (the list is endless), over the many years? Were they only to have faith that this good guy in the sky will swoop down and smite their tormentors? Or, maybe all of the children who have suffered had no faith and what became of them was their punishment?

Good intentions in thought is only that, in thought. Without action, it is the delusion of a sick mind that a god would never leave or forsake us.
The horrific conditions that so many children have to endure, the world over, is evidence of that.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Heatmiser 0]

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God did promise however that He would never leave or forsake us.

So, what is/was your almighty, loving God's intentions when he turned his back on the millions of children who have been raped, abused, starved to death, enslaved, murdered... (the list is endless), over the many years? Were they only to have faith that this good guy in the sky will swoop down and smite their tormentors? Or, maybe all of the children who have suffered had no faith and what became of them was their punishment?

They must not have prayed the right prayer, or something, right? Otherwise these passages would apply.


Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Good intentions in thought is only that, in thought. Without action, it is the delusion of a sick mind that a god would never leave or forsake us.
The horrific conditions that so many children have to endure, the world over, is evidence of that.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama