dreamdancer 0 #376 August 18, 2011 QuoteTwo of the most significant figures in the British legal establishment have made urgent warnings about tough sentencing for riot-related offences as the split in the coalition over the response to last week's violence dramatically widened. Lord Macdonald, who led the prosecution service in England and Wales for five years, warned that the courts risked being swept up in a "collective loss of proportion", passing jail terms that lack "humanity or justice". Meanwhile his fellow Liberal Democrat peer Lord Carlile, the barrister who was until this year the government's independent adviser on terrorism strategy, warned against ministerial interference in the judicial process, arguing that "just filling up prisons" would not prevent future problems. David Cameron, who last week promised severe punishments for rioters, saying he hoped courts would use "exemplary" sentences to deter future riots, praised the sentencing decisions, which have included two jailed for four years each for inciting riots on Facebook – riots that never took place – and one person sent to prison for six months for stealing £3.50 worth of water. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/riots-sentence-liberal-democrats-conservativesstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #377 August 18, 2011 It's not the act ... it's the act WITHIN an act that is the problem. Stealing a bottle of water sounds petty until you place it in the context of a RIOT - then - not so much. These people collectively RUINED the lives of so many people. They deserve to have theirs affected in some non-trivial way... A slap on the wrist will NOT do. That would NOT be justice,it would be a joke. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #378 August 18, 2011 and the facebook sentences over riots that never happened? all that's going to happen is that the sentences are going to get reduced on appeal and the judges and politicians are going to be left with egg on their faces. meanwhile nothing is going to happen on the ground and it's all going to happen again next summer. and the banking crash still carries on wrecking our economy and the bankers still aren't in prison even though they ruined many more lives...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #379 August 18, 2011 why do you have problems separating the issues ... this is NOT A BANKING ISSUE - so why keep bringing it up here? This is about Scroats breaking the law on the streets of our cities not in boardrooms. O.K the bankers are twats.. .. move that to a different thread. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #380 August 18, 2011 no, the bankers are criminal and have wrecked our economy. meanwhile a few petty riots bring about a whole lot of distraction from the 'hang 'em high' rightwing parade. what do you think of the sentences for the facebook riots that never happened? do you agree with me that many of these sentences are going to be reduced on appeal?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #381 August 18, 2011 The facebook thugs were inciting crime to be committed and should be punished. It's for the Judges to decide the penalty not me. That answer also stands for the appeal process. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #382 August 18, 2011 ah well, we'll all look forward to the next time then. meanwhile the bankers are still scot-free to plunder again...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #383 August 18, 2011 I agree that there is a problem of sentencing but this stems from the failure of the legal system to provide a relevant charge. Since the repeal of the riot act each crime is charged as an independent act. This does not allow for the context of the crime (As Tony correctly points out) to be included on the charge sheet. Personally I would like to see the riot act re-established in a new form to allow for harsher sentencing which would not then lead to the potential problems that we now may see within the justice system. Four years for trying to organise a riot? Six months for stealing a bottle of water during a riot? Thats just and I have no problem with it within the context but would like to have seen the CPS have a separate riot act under which to place these crimes.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #384 August 18, 2011 Quote and the facebook sentences over riots that never happened? By that logic we should not sentence Suicide bombers who's bombs fail to detonate.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #385 August 18, 2011 QuoteThe facebook thugs were inciting crime to be committed and should be punished. It's for the Judges to decide the penalty not me. That answer also stands for the appeal process. this government seems to be afraid of its people...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #386 August 18, 2011 Politicians are just whores when it comes to popularity.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #387 August 18, 2011 Quote Lord Macdonald, who led the prosecution service in England and Wales for five years, warned that the courts risked being swept up in a "collective loss of proportion", passing jail terms that lack "humanity or justice". Yet isn't the knowledge that you can commit these sorts of crimes without consequences part of the reason people seem so quick to riot and loot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #388 August 19, 2011 and the police keep getting away with murder - so they'll do it again... QuoteAn eyewitness to Duggan's killing told reporters: "About three or four police officers had [him] pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots. The police shot him on the floor." This is how the police shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes on the floor of a London Underground train in 2005. http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/08/pilger-police-british-youngstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #389 August 19, 2011 So who is this eyewitness? Of course we don't know so we can't comment on their integrity or that of their testimony. This account sounds highly unlikely.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #390 August 28, 2011 QuoteThe leader of Britain's prison governors accused magistrates of indulging in a sentencing "feeding frenzy" as prisons near capacity. Eoin McLennan-Murray, president of the Prison Governors Association (PGA), said courts had shown "naked popularism" in meting out tough justice after the riots. Seven in 10 of those charged with riot-related offences have been remanded in custody, likely to receive a custodial sentence, compared with only one in 10 of those charged with serious offences last year. The PGA warns that if people continue to be put behind bars at such a rate, prisons will be full by mid-September. "It's like when you've got sharks and there's blood in the water and it's a feeding frenzy. There's a sentencing frenzy and we seem to have lost all sight of proportionality," Mr McLennan-Murray said. "It's appealing to the populist mentality, and that's not the best basis on which to sentence people. The norms of sentencing are being ignored." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sentencing-frenzy-will-fill-prisons-within-weeks-2345256.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #391 August 29, 2011 See we wouldn't have this problem if the Police were allowed to shoot looters.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #392 September 3, 2011 QuoteIn an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Mr Starmer says those convicted of involvement in the riots should not be seen as a “separate category”, as some judges have argued. Instead, he says, the Crown Prosecution Service and other legal authorities “need to keep our feet on the ground” and “remind ourselves that we are dealing with ordinary criminal cases”. Surveys have suggested that courts have handed down sentences to those involved in the riots that are about a quarter longer than normal. Some people have been incarcerated for months for stealing low-value items. Mr Starmer makes clear that he is not commenting on individual sentencing. However, his warning that disorder cases should be treated like all others will be taken as a signal that he opposes the tough line taken by many, the Prime Minister included. His remarks raise the prospect that many of the sentences will be reduced by the appeal courts. “We should not treat these cases as a separate category,” he says. “We should treat them as we do any other case.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8738809/Riot-justice-is-too-tough-says-chief-prosecutor.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #393 September 3, 2011 Starmer is talking out of his hole. The crimes have to be seen in context to do otherwise is taking a ostrich like stance with regards to the seriousness of the crimes. Quote courts have handed down sentences to those involved in the riots that are about a quarter longer than normal GOODWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #394 September 3, 2011 Spot on matey. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #395 September 3, 2011 do as i say and not as i do... QuoteLabour has issued a press release challenging Cameron's questionable claim that he never saw a restaurant smashed up, and urging him to "take responsibility" for what he dismisses as youthful indiscretions. Here's the full statement from Labour MP John Mann: David Cameron has questions to answer after his claim today that he did not witness people throwing things through windows or smashing up restaurants during his days as a Bullingdon Club member. This is very different to what other people remember. He needs to start admitting what he did and start taking responsibility for what he shrugs off as youthful indiscretions. If we are to get more responsibility throughout our society following the riots then the Prime Minister should set an example. http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/09/cameron-claim-labourstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #396 September 4, 2011 now that the rioters have been sorted - time for the bankers... QuoteThe political season reopens this week, with the noise of the riots and looting of 6-9 August still echoing as MPs assemble tomorrow. One MP says that the riots "vividly revealed human behaviour at its worst: the greed, recklessness, and lack of responsibility a few in our society feel towards their fellow man. Those are the same flaws, the same charges that were rightly levelled at the bankers during the financial crisis". That was not John McDonnell, the left-wing Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington, who talked of the "ethos of looting bankers". No, it was Matthew Hancock, the new Conservative MP for West Suffolk, who wrote in The Times that "it is not left-wing to criticise the moral vacuum at the top as well as the bottom of society". Something significant seems to be happening. Mr Hancock is no eccentric Tory. He was special adviser to George Osborne in opposition and is still close to the Chancellor; nor is he isolated. Mr Hancock has even written a book, published this week, with fellow MP Nadhim Zahawi, Masters of Nothing, which calls for greater responsibility from the highly paid swashbucklers of the City. Mark Reckless, the new Tory MP for Rochester, last week advocated higher taxes on the "very wealthy", including the mansion tax propounded by Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat Business Secretary. And Jesse Norman, the new Tory MP for Hereford, wrote last week: "Twenty years ago the average chief executive of a FTSE 100 company earned 17 times the average employee's pay; now it is more than 75 times. Most of this is not merit-related, and excessive pay is a matter of serious and legitimate public concern." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-the-superrich-should-be-in-this-too-2348857.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #397 September 4, 2011 Quote now that the rioters have been sorted - time for the bankers... If only, don't hold your breath though. They should also go after G Brown after Darlings revelations today.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #398 September 4, 2011 My take on the bankers (and others in general): If whatever they are doing is legal, then there's no room for complaint. If what they are doing is illegal, bust their balls wide open. If you want them to do something more "ethically" pleasing, then you'll need to change the laws to that effect. Loopholes? Close them.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #399 December 20, 2011 Good news for the law abiding Londoners. Rioters could in future be shot if they endanger the life of others. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/shooting-threat-riot-arsonists-103314051.htmlWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #400 December 20, 2011 QuoteRioters could in future be shot if they endanger the life of others. With what? Y'all ain't got no guns! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
