rehmwa 2 #101 August 10, 2011 QuoteI believe both are appropriate steps, and neither should be held as ransom while waiting for the other. here's the deal - 1 - cut spending AND raise taxes on everyone - that will do the best job. 2 - only cut spending without raising taxes - that will push us in the right direction at least and set the correct budgetary mindset 3 - only raise taxes - that will likely result in increased spending and make everything worse. But this is proven as the SOP for government for years and years. 4 - raise taxes and raise spending - again, normal SOP and the likely end result of scenario #3 when the dust settles - regardless of original good intentions. 2 real scenarios - #2 first, then migrate to #1 once we can show discipline else #3 morphing into #4 - AAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH - we've tried this one multiple times and it's why we're in bad shape seems to me, we have a legitimate argument to hold one item ransom (taxes) to prove the other (spending discipline) - but not the other way around. Until we prove we are capable of succeeding in #2, then option #1 is just an impossible dream. Seriously, didn't anyone read the S&P report? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #102 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteIsn't that little analogy nicely tailored to your argument. I won't get a job until you cut out the food that we need. A better analogy to the current situation is that wife keeps buying shoes and maxing out her credit cards, and the husband keeps buying car parts that they dont NEED. They had set up a savings account to cover known future expenses, hello social security, but instead it was spent on eating out three times a week at crappy chain resturants. Now the roof has a leak but they already spent all of their home equity line. So now they want their teenage kids to work two jobs each to pay for their great financial planning. So in your example, should the husband doing tandems at the DZ on the weekends be part of the appropriate solution? Or should he wait for the car parts/shoes/credit car bills/roof repairs to be stricken from the budget before he consider such a drastic move? Blues, DaveWell to make the analogy a bit more accurate, how about factoring in that the husband voluntarily took a reduction in his pay (Bush tax cuts) while gambling that he could make up the difference and more playing day trader (deregulation of the financial sector), all the while knowing they had another baby on the way (baby boomer generation moving into retirement/social security/medicare; overall population increase, more pressure on essential services). Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #103 August 10, 2011 QuoteI would take a 15 to 20% increase in my Federal taxes if it part of a meaningful plan that left us solvent in the near future. I would give up any claim to social security or medicare even. Sweet...I would too, subject to the same "if" qualification. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #104 August 10, 2011 QuoteMore than likely once the budget and spending is cleaned up they will find they have plenty of money they didn't know they had. I'd be willing to take that risk! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #105 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRhetoric and hot air, maybe, but no factual rebuttal. The argument that a return to pre-GWB tax rates will be a disaster is simply bogus and unsupported by fact. I won't make that argument. I will make the argument that a return to pre-GWB tax rates will do fuck all to fix the deficit without serious reform to medicare and social security. The biggest component to our problem is medicare and social security. The democrats are strongly opposed to any meaningful changes to either of these programs, so are some republicans too, Why? Votes. Getting votes is more important that stopping the runaway train. One could argue that SS is a separate program supported by a completely separate payroll tax. It does need to be overhauled and any surpluses used to rebuild the trust fund- not spent out of the general fund like the last 30 years. I'd start someplace other than SS for overall government spending cutbacks. WHAT.. are you carzy?????? We cant have any clear headed thinking in here. SOCIAL Programs BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD WAR or rumours of WAR GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD Heh heh. Like it's gong to happen anyways. Benefits will be cut, full retirement age will go to from 65 to 72, possibly the tax cap will be raised and any excess m. It's 66 already.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #106 August 10, 2011 QuoteI would take a 15 to 20% increase in my Federal taxes if it part of a meaningful plan that left us solvent in the near future.+1 Quote I would give up any claim to social security...But would you want your contributions to date refunded? Or would you walk away from that? If the system were to just refund everyone's contributions and then shut down, that alone would more than bankrupt the system. Of all the government entitlement programs, SS is actually in the best shape, having run a surplus until quite recently. Even future projections show that the system could be preserved as a lifeline for those whose 401Ks/pensions/investments tank with falling markets/corporate bankruptcies/etc. The standard of living would be very bare bones if SS is all you have left, but people wouldn't find themselves living on the street when they're 85. It would need serious "tweaking", including raising the retirement age to account for increases in lifespan, changing the indexing system, and making the benefit fully taxable, all of which I'd be happy to live with. Quote... or medicare even.Can you offer some examples of affordable health insurance that is available to 70+-year-olds with any of the various infirmites that come with old age? The medicare system was created precisely because the US system was dependent on employment-related health insurance which is by definition not available to the retired, plus the fact that the profit-motivated insurance industry had no interest in covering clients whose bills were likely to greatly exceed their ability to pay premiums. The insurance industry is still motivated by profit (not saying it as a bad thing, just a fact), and the out-of-pocket cost of medical services is more out of reach than ever. Unless you're planning to set aside up to $1,000,000 or so to cover some potential not-even-worst-case-scenario medical crisis, you might want to rethink the medicare bit. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #107 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteyou fuckers ran this into the ground... please OWN your fucking mistakes If this gets me banned, fine ban me. You are a fucking idiot to think only the Elephants are responsible for the mess the US is in. The Donkeys and the Elephants have both created this mess. To blame only one side just goes to show the world what a partisan moron that you really are. For crying out loud you have admitted that you have a maid and yet you still whine about how much money other people have? I can not afford a maid, but I could give a rats ass how much money someone else has. Whoever told you life would be easy was clearly lying to you. Now if you will excuse me, I will send myself off to the dizzy.com penalty box and wait to see if I only have a game misconduct for this post or if a suspension is in order. I do have better things to do with my time than argue with some partisan medusa. I love you too Steve.. but its a proven fact anyone can call me anything they wish and be free from a ban. Its been open season with PA's against me for years. It really is too bad you do not have a firm grasp on reality of how we got to this mess. I am not surprised you still believe as do your fellow travellers here in this country that its the SOCIALISM STUPID.. that got us here. So... Have a nice day.. and be sure to visit http://www. xtralargebuttplugsforanalretentiveconservatives.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #108 August 10, 2011 QuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #109 August 10, 2011 QuoteWell to make the analogy a bit more accurate, how about factoring in that the husband voluntarily took a reduction in his pay (Bush tax cuts) Revenues went up every year from 03-07 until the housing bubble popped.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #110 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteWell to make the analogy a bit more accurate, how about factoring in that the husband voluntarily took a reduction in his pay (Bush tax cuts) Revenues went up every year from 03-07 until the housing bubble popped. So it did the previous decade, until the .com bubble burst. Funny how bubbles do that. Then there's inflation and population growth...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #111 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #112 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food? A responsible one - and hamburger is good food, if not as tasty as filet (or White House wagyu beef).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #113 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food? A responsible one - and hamburger is good food, if not as tasty as filet (or White House wagyu beef). Ground beef can have up to 30% saturated fat. Husband should work harder instead of trying to kill his family.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #114 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food? A responsible one - and hamburger is good food, if not as tasty as filet (or White House wagyu beef). Ground beef can have up to 30% saturated fat. Husband should work harder instead of trying to kill his family. Operative word being "can" - wife should control her spending.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #115 August 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food? A responsible one - and hamburger is good food, if not as tasty as filet (or White House wagyu beef). Ground beef can have up to 30% saturated fat. Husband should work harder instead of trying to kill his family.Plenty of carbs and chicken are both healthier and cheaper.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #116 August 10, 2011 Quote Ground beef can have up to 30% saturated fat. Husband should work harder instead of trying to kill his family. top quality ground beef (from closed herds that feed on pastures) still only runs $5/lb at the tourist Ferry Building (Prather Meat Co) in San Francisco. Extra lean meat from more routine providers are cheaper. Still a lot cheaper than the filet cuts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #117 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf the husband told his wife, "Yes, I could do tandems at the DZ on weekends for some extra cash, but I won't till you prove you can cut the grocery bill in half", he'd probably find himself sleeping in the dog house, and rightfully so. Blues, Dave When the wife is buying filet mignon on a hamburger salary, he's absolutely right to say it. What kind of a husband begrudges his family good food? A responsible one - and hamburger is good food, if not as tasty as filet (or White House wagyu beef). Ground beef can have up to 30% saturated fat. Husband should work harder instead of trying to kill his family. Operative word being "can" - wife should control her spending. If she can't, the gubment will step in and do it for her! Consumers Now Required To Seek Treasury Department Approval On All Purchases Over $50 August 10, 2011 | ISSUE 47•32 WASHINGTON—Disappointed with the way the nation has been managing its money, the Treasury Department announced Wednesday it had begun requiring citizens to seek government approval on all purchases over $50. "It's not that we don't trust people, but right now we're not seeing a lot of evidence suggesting they're capable of making these decisions on their own," Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said of the law requiring consumers to fill out a form at the point-of-sale listing the desired item, the total estimated cost, and the reason why they need it and why they need it now. "If, for example, you are a 32-year-old woman deep in credit card debt, we are going to need a compelling reason as to why you need a vintage rotary phone from Anthropologie." At press time, the department had denied Cleveland resident Jim Barnes' purchase of a Buffalo Springfield box set that he already had on cassette. (Insert $1000 toilet seat and $500 ashtray joke here)Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #118 August 11, 2011 Quote (Insert $1000 toilet seat and $500 ashtray joke here) So a toilet seat and an ashtray walk into an Army bar .... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #119 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuote (Insert $1000 toilet seat and $500 ashtray joke here) So a toilet seat and an ashtray walk into an Army bar .... Bartender says, "Hey assface, there's no smoking in here." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #120 August 11, 2011 QuoteIt seems to me that every argument on either side of this debate includes something along the lines of "my side can't/shouldn't give up X" but "the other side can/should give up y". Democrats insist the rich be taxed more, Republicans insist the poor get less welfare. Let's try something different for a change. Without regard to what you think others should give up, would benefit do you currently enjoy that you'd be willing to sacrifice to help balance the budget. For starters, I'd give up the mortgage interest deduction on my second home and the deduction of my state sales tax from my taxable income. I'd gladly forego Saturday mail delivery and I be willing to drive on roads maintained half as well as they currently are. Blues, Dave I would give up the war on terror, the war on drugs, and the Bush tax cuts. Oh, and the TSA. I can't believe we still pay people to steal my kids toothpaste.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #121 August 11, 2011 >Operative word being "can" - wife should control her spending. Or just take the Republican approach. Tell her to buy Filet Mignon, then refuse to give her any money. When she says that won't work, blame her for starving your children and threaten her with bankruptcy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #122 August 11, 2011 Wow... your all so partisan it is rediculous. None of you can see that it was a long road that got us here. It took two political parties to get us down that road. It took the american society sitting quietly in the back seat. Socialism, the military industrial complex, our societies focus on price over quality, financial deregulation, credit hungry fraud homebuyers, there are a huge number of things that lead to this. It has brewing for a looooooooong time and the hammer just happened to fall now."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #123 August 11, 2011 Quote>Operative word being "can" - wife should control her spending. Or just take the Republican approach. Tell her to buy Filet Mignon, then refuse to give her any money. When she says that won't work, blame her for starving your children and threaten her with bankruptcy. Or just take the Democrat approach. Buy the filet mignon, even when the husband says they can't afford it. Then, when the husband mentions hamburger, blame him for starving her children and threaten not to buy any groceries.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #124 August 11, 2011 QuoteQuote>Operative word being "can" - wife should control her spending. Or just take the Republican approach. Tell her to buy Filet Mignon, then refuse to give her any money. When she says that won't work, blame her for starving your children and threaten her with bankruptcy. Or just take the Democrat approach. Buy the filet mignon, even when the husband says they can't afford it. Then, when the husband mentions hamburger, blame him for starving her children and threaten not to buy any groceries. Nah, the democrat approach is have someone else buy the filet mignon, then take part of it and give it to others and demand that person buy more so they can give it to more people. If the person objects or mentions that they could feed more with hamburger, they are called heartless and selfish.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #125 August 11, 2011 QuoteNah, the democrat approach is have someone else buy the filet mignon, then take part of it and give it to others and demand that person buy more so they can give it to more people. If the person objects or mentions that they could feed more with hamburger, they are called heartless and selfish. +1 Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
