Unions

[Rick 67]

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Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Yeah.. they care nothing about apprenticeships, training to journeymen’s skill levels or any of that useless master craftsmen knowledge in your world view

It’s far better to hire Juan and his crew.. they have such exacting homebuilding skills and codes in Tiajuana

Not every non-union company is hiring Juan and paying sub standard wages. And I have personally had my product sabataged by union workers in Atlantic City.
The union at the meat packing company my brother worked at was VOTED OUT BY IT'S OWN MEMBERS. I guess the democratic voting process was not recognized by the union. They sent picketers to every restaurant that was still using the company until they drove them out of business by scaring off all the customers. Another small business driven out by the union organized crime.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Amazon 7]

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Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Yeah.. they care nothing about apprenticeships, training to journeymen’s skill levels or any of that useless master craftsmen knowledge in your world view

It’s far better to hire Juan and his crew.. they have such exacting homebuilding skills and codes in Tiajuana

Not every non-union company is hiring Juan and paying sub standard wages. And I have personally had my product sabataged by union workers in Atlantic City.
The union at the meat packing company my brother worked at was VOTED OUT BY IT'S OWN MEMBERS. I guess the democratic voting process was not recognized by the union. They sent picketers to every restaurant that was still using the company until they drove them out of business by scaring off all the customers. Another small business driven out by the union organized crime.

The facts are a hell of a lot of them are. There needs to be a balance, get rid of the organized crime in some of the unions.. and retain the good parts of the unions that a lot of you who hate anything that even sounds like a union.

[Rick 67]

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Unions care about union leaders, etc. Nothing more, bottom line.

Yeah.. they care nothing about apprenticeships, training to journeymen’s skill levels or any of that useless master craftsmen knowledge in your world view

It’s far better to hire Juan and his crew.. they have such exacting homebuilding skills and codes in Tiajuana

Not every non-union company is hiring Juan and paying sub standard wages. And I have personally had my product sabataged by union workers in Atlantic City.
The union at the meat packing company my brother worked at was VOTED OUT BY IT'S OWN MEMBERS. I guess the democratic voting process was not recognized by the union. They sent picketers to every restaurant that was still using the company until they drove them out of business by scaring off all the customers. Another small business driven out by the union organized crime.

The facts are a hell of a lot of them are. There needs to be a balance, get rid of the organized crime in some of the unions.. and retain the good parts of the unions that a lot of you who hate anything that even sounds like a union.

I grew up in /Detroit and my first 2 jobs were union. Hell my Dad is retired from the DOD and my Mom is a retired Teamster. So I was not always anti-union.

My business is located in Florida where union shops are few and far between compared to Detroit. I just do not understand why the union workers think that they "own" certain cities or areas. Even going as far as to threaten non-union workers with physical harm and sabataging equipment and work done by non-union companies. i pay a fair wage and I quote jobs all over the country. Why do I have to pay a local union electrician to stay at the mall overnight while we install a sign in case I need to plug in an extension cord?? We are a Certified Electrical Sign Contractor. I think my guys are perfectly capapble of plugging in extension cords.
Sorry for the rant I just think the original need and concepts of the union have gotten lost. I guess anytime large amounts of cash are involved that is what will happen.


Still love you though Jeanne

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[popsjumper 2]

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They paid 1.7B for Hussmann in 2000. Several years ago, as Hussmann became not so profitable for them, they set out to sell a larger portion of the company. Over the summer they sold 60% for just over 300M.

Yup. That's what one does. Buy low sell high.

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Hussmann had a long history in St. Louis... It was a positive ripple effect ... it is every industry that relies on that plant. The ripple turns and goes in a negative direction. It's not just union people who suffer. It's everyone along the chain.
Sad that so many do not see the big picture.

OK. We were addressing how unions cause problems. Now you're talking about how the economy causes problems. Two different things.

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Exorbitant wages? The wages at Hussmann ranged from around $12.00 to just over $20.00.

Compared to what the Mexicans probably made, yes, Exorbitant.

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Lines would often have to shut down due to parts that would not fit properly. Some parts could be hand drilled on the line and then installed. Other parts, such as panels and trim, went into the scrap bin. Every time the line stops, that is a cost the goes into thousands of dollars. When an entire shipment of parts are not usable, the cost is extremely high.

Of course! Let me guess, the Mexican union protected the deadwood's jobs. The company couldn't hire decent workers. Or, maybe they just hired bozos in the first place. Quality comes form the workers, not the union, not the company. How does that relate to why the jobs were farmed out in the first place?

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Quality saves cost.

So, you DO understand that.

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A company loses that edge when they use parts that come from out of country.

Well yes, of course....when the producers let out sub-quality work....regardless of what country they are in.

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Not every job lost is a union job. Just as many non union workers were put out of a job.

Yup. And somebody has already posted an example of a union forcing the closing of a business....which is what I hate about unions. "Screw everybody else as long as I get mine."

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Sad that you do not realize that. You should take an economics class.

Sad that you would think I don't and that I haven't.
You should address the issue at hand instead of running off on tangents.

Economics is not the issue. It's how unions do more damage than help these days.

You wnat to close down a plant because they won't/can't give you that $0.05 raise...screw the unions.

You want to strike for higher wages after agreeing to work for a set wage? Screw the unions.

You want to raise the company's payroll expenditures to a point where they can no longer afford to keep you employed? Screw the unions.

You want blame a company for wanting to make a profit? Screw the unions.

You want a company to be loyal to you while you show no loyalty whatsoever by trying to squeeze them at every turn? Screw the unions.

You want to blame the company for the local economic down slide because you forced them out of business? Screw the unions.

You want union people screwing with non-union jobs and companies? Screw the unions.


Unions had there place in time. They've become insatiable monsters since.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[charlie5 0]

Unions cost people jobs. Either by forcing companies to close shop or by simply demanding pay that is too high to allow new employees to be hired.

Sure that one unionized worker is making a good wage, but at the expense of other potential workers who need a wage of any kind, especially in today's economy.

The feather butts bounce off ya like raindrops hitting a battle-star when they come in too fast...kinda funny to watch. - airtwardo

[hwt 0]

You think that you can dictate wages ?
in place of the free enterprise? free market?

lets us take a look at what the unions did to the automobile industry.
The UAW's demands were so high that GM had to look for ways to compete.

GM was not allowed to farm out any of the auto parts to non union machine shops . ( to lower the cost ) .
So GM outsourced the parts to be machined overseas.

The UAW drove GM to bankruptcy and outsourced our manufacturing overseas.

The worst part... The non union shops ( that were snubbed by the UAW ) bailed out the union leaches .

and Obama robbed the stock holders and gave the money to the people who took this once great company down...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So when it is more cost effective to produce in the states it is ok to buy here, but not vice versa? Got it.

Try running a business successfully and then come back and tell me how you did so using only products and labor from US unions.

AGAIN.. what you and the other union haters in the business community seem to miss completely is that we as a country are heading to a place where you will be joining the ranks of the poor all too soon when you have no market for your products because no Americans other than perhaps the very top 1% have any money to buy anything.

You and your fellow travellers are supporting the demise of a healthy middle class in America and your grandchildren are going to curse you and those like you for it.

So tell me...how many people could afford to buy a car if it was built entirely in the US by union members? Not many.
Fuck the unions. Just a bunch of pussies who can't stand up for themselves.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Kennedy 0]

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Yeah.. they care nothing about apprenticeships, training to journeymen’s skill levels or any of that useless master craftsmen knowledge in your world view

It’s far better to hire Juan and his crew.. they have such exacting homebuilding skills and codes in Tiajuana

If unions are so much better, they wouldn't need to lobby for laws that require all shops in a state to be union. They would be able to stand on their own merits. Instead the spend fortunes to pass laws that give them a monopoly on labor availability. Not to mention the sabotage and blackmail and other unsavory tactics they've been known to use.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

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. . . and other unsavory tactics they've been known to use.

Because, like, companies have never used "unsavory tactics" and we all know a single individual can stand up to a company and demand fair treatment.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jgoose71 0]

I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Jeanne.

Unions are like leaches or wolves. I have used leaches to get rid of bumps and bruises before, and they work like a champ. Wolves are know for hunting down the sick and the maim in the heard to keep it strong.

If I was to plaster my entire body with leaches, it probably wouldn't work out so well. If you cornered a heard and let the wolves have their way with them, it probably wouldn't work out so well for the heard.

Collective bargaining for state employees probably isn't going to work out so well. We've seen the corrupt circle in full effect. Unions giving huge amounts of money to candidates that promise pay raises to the point where you can't tax the state enough.

However, unions that ensure that the company stays healthy by being a check and balance between the board room and the guys doing the work are good.

I know I have talked trash about unions here before, but lets face it, they are all just a bunch of lawyers anyway.....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[mnealtx 0]

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However, unions that ensure that the company stays healthy by being a check and balance between the board room and the guys doing the work are good.

And how many of THOSE are there, nowadays?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jgoose71 0]

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However, unions that ensure that the company stays healthy by being a check and balance between the board room and the guys doing the work are good.

And how many of THOSE are there, nowadays?

And I will have to redirect you to my last sentence of my post. Unions bosses are like judges, lawyers with power......

Tell me again how this is going to end well?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Kennedy 0]

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. . . and other unsavory tactics they've been known to use.

Because, like, companies have never used "unsavory tactics" and we all know a single individual can stand up to a company and demand fair treatment.

Anything to say to the rest of the post?

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If unions are so much better, they wouldn't need to lobby for laws that require all shops in a state to be union. They would be able to stand on their own merits. Instead the spend fortunes to pass laws that give them a monopoly on labor availability.

To put it another way, turn your question around. How can an employer stand up to a union? Now all the power is on the other side, instead of an actual compromise. This monopoly is no better than the old one.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[freethefly 6]

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However, unions that ensure that the company stays healthy by being a check and balance between the board room and the guys doing the work are good.

In the case of Hussmann, the union and the company had a great working relationship, when the company was not part of a conglomerate. There was tension when the company was owned by Whitman Corp. After they spun us off, tension eased greatly. The came Ingersoll Rand.

Company and union picnics were once combined. Without an overlord attitude from some sort of mega-god CEO, life was real good in the plant. When Ingersoll Rand took over, everything changed for the worst. No longer were company and union people permitted to fraternize. Hence, company and union picnics were no longer combined. The same for the annual golf tournament. I believe that sort of separation breaks down friendly negotiations. People stop viewing each other as friends in the same boat. It erodes the trust that was gained when people were able to see each other outside the plant. You see that those in the union and those who are company are no different. Everyone has families, kids, and homes. You know, people talk to each other about something other than the job. You start to see that everyone is in the same boat. That was healthy for the company as well as the union.
My view is when a wall is put between the two, union and company, each side fails to see the other side as people and only as numbers and tools.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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However, unions that ensure that the company stays healthy by being a check and balance between the board room and the guys doing the work are good.

In the case of Hussmann, the union and the company had a great working relationship, when the company was not part of a conglomerate. There was tension when the company was owned by Whitman Corp. After they spun us off, tension eased greatly. The came Ingersoll Rand.

Company and union picnics were once combined. Without an overlord attitude from some sort of mega-god CEO, life was real good in the plant. When Ingersoll Rand took over, everything changed for the worst. No longer were company and union people permitted to fraternize. Hence, company and union picnics were no longer combined. The same for the annual golf tournament. I believe that sort of separation breaks down friendly negotiations. People stop viewing each other as friends in the same boat. It erodes the trust that was gained when people were able to see each other outside the plant. You see that those in the union and those who are company are no different. Everyone has families, kids, and homes. You know, people talk to each other about something other than the job. You start to see that everyone is in the same boat. That was healthy for the company as well as the union.
My view is when a wall is put between the two, union and company, each side fails to see the other side as people and only as numbers and tools.

Company management, owners, CEOs, etc. are not in the same boat as employees. They own and/or run the company. They are in charge. Hourly workers are just that...workers. They have far no concern whether the company has a net profit of $200 or $2,000,000 as long as they collect a paycheck for as much as they can get and, in the case of unions, extort from the company.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[freethefly 6]

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Company management, owners, CEOs, etc. are not in the same boat as employees.

That is ridiculous. Of course they are in the same boat. The better the company does the better they all do. If the ship goes down, they all go with it.

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They own and/or run the company.

A large number of union people are also stockholders. Hmmm... I do believe that would make them part owners of the company. So a lot of them are in the same boat. The better the company does. The better they all do.
Hussmann employees agreed to concessions during down turns. Why wouldn't they when near every one in there were stockholders. The same went with UAW members. 74% of the membership voted for concessions that will save $1.3B per year in labor cost. Do you honestly believe that no UAW member owns stock in the company he/she works for? If the company tanked, their boat is on the bottom of the ocean. UAW members at Ford did the same thing. The majority voted for it. That is the democratic process in action. Those who do not like it? Oh well, the majority rules.

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They have far no concern whether the company has a net profit of $200 or $2,000,000 as long as they collect a paycheck for as much as they can get and, in the case of unions, extort from the company.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that the majority of people are so stupid that they do not care if the company makes a profit?
What caused GM to nearly sink was not entirely the union. The union had a very small share of the blame. The vast majority of blame belonged to management. GM has admitted to it. They also admitted that lack of innovation, cars that they could not sell, was part of their problem. Ending models that people did want. They have faulted CAFE legislation from 1975 as part of their problem. They designed low quality cars that met the CAFE standard and satisfied the government so they could continue with large trucks that could be pushed in fleet sales. They failed to keep an eye on what their competition was doing. They failed to change their way of thinking and stuck with the status quo. More than anything it was putting people like Rick Wagnor, who came up through finance, at the helm when what they really needed was someone from design. They needed a car guy. Someone who understood what people want. John DeLorean pointed that out in the early 70s. Bob Lutz knew it. If all a company focus on is the bottom line, they fail to see what actually sells.
I'm damn glad that a car guy brought the Camaro back. Best decision GM has made in years. I'm sure all of those stockholders on the factory floor feel the same way.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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Company management, owners, CEOs, etc. are not in the same boat as employees.

That is ridiculous. Of course they are in the same boat. The better the company does the better they all do. If the ship goes down, they all go with it.

Then why does the union strike and therefore hurt the company by preventing product from being produced?

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They have far no concern whether the company has a net profit of $200 or $2,000,000 as long as they collect a paycheck for as much as they can get and, in the case of unions, extort from the company.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that the majority of people are so stupid that they do not care if the company makes a profit?

He didn't state the the employees didn't care if the company made a profit - again, you change the parameter so you can frame your reply in a pro-union light.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

You obviously have zero comprehension of how business operates.
If a union worker makes $20/hr he gets $20 for each hour he works regardles of the bottom line of the company as a whole. His only concern is whether the company stays afloat. The UAW worked this to perfection.
The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy. Their legalized extortion gained them benefits that were impossible for any company to keep paying out.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

Then why did the non-UAW manufacturers come through without bankruptcy?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

Then why did the non-UAW manufacturers come through without bankruptcy?

Mike, you're smart enough to know that bankruptcy is used by corporations to separate themselves from all sorts of deals they supposedly made in good faith. Bankruptcy is not really a standard of success or failure for companies and has been used many times for nefarious purposes; often times to screw over the very people that have given their lives to working for those same companies.

Both union and non-union companies go bankrupt. Your question is moot.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

Now that is an intelligent reply.
So you think corporations can continue to function while paying unrealistically high wages and benefits to relatively uneducated/unskilled labor, paying untold millions/year in pensions to those same workers after they retire....all while competing against non-union shops that pay reasonable wages and benefits?
Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 4]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

Now that is an intelligent reply.
So you think corporations can continue to function while paying unrealistically high wages and benefits to relatively uneducated/unskilled labor, paying untold millions/year in pensions to those same workers after they retire....all while competing against non-union shops that pay reasonable wages and benefits?
Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

Right, because it's the wages of the lowest level of workers that's driving companies into the ground.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20110821,0,1491024.column

Fuck that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The UAW drove the "Big Three" into bankruptcy.

Bull-fuckin'-shit.

Now that is an intelligent reply.
So you think corporations can continue to function while paying unrealistically high wages and benefits to relatively uneducated/unskilled labor, paying untold millions/year in pensions to those same workers after they retire....all while competing against non-union shops that pay reasonable wages and benefits?
Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

Right, because it's the wages of the lowest level of workers that's driving companies into the ground.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20110821,0,1491024.column

Fuck that.

Ah yes, back to the same old "rich man vs poor man" argument.
I win, you lose.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[freethefly 6]

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all while competing against non-union shops that pay reasonable wages and benefits?

New hires at GM start at $14.00 an hour. Overtimes does not kick in until a member works a straight total of 40 hours. Their retirement package is not the same as veteran employees. It was the UAW that pushed the new package. 75% of the membership voted for it.

Laying complete blame on the UAW is nothing more than scapegoating from those who have an extreme hatred towards unions. The UAW did admit that the legacy retirement package is a burden. They offered a different deal and it was accepted by GM and the membership. That alone should had removed close to $2000.00 off the price of a car.

GM looked, long and hard, at how Honda and Toyota mange their business. They made changes in the divisions, reducing them to four, GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac, and Buick. With the support of the UAW, they cut the workforce dramatically, with buyouts, The buyouts allow for new hire, when needed, at the new pay scale starting at $14.00 per hour.

They're also paying attention to what people want. The new Camaro is their best selling car in years. They should had never ended the line. Furthermore, they should had done a retro muscle car Camaro instead. Also, instead of ending the Pontiac brand, they would had done well to close Buick and introduced a retro muscle car Firebird. That would had grabbed the devotion of 60 era Firebird lovers, particularly baby boomers that are retiring and want a part of their youth back. Retro Camaros and Firebirds would be awesome and could had grabbed a greater share of the market. That is a management mistake as were the mistakes of the past.

The UAW shares some blame, but GM management deserves to shoulder the greater burden of fault. Their management style stayed the same for near 40 years. They failed to keep an eye on the competition and the competition zoomed right past them. Thanks should be given to the union for pushing the concessions to their members. Thanks should be given to the 75% that agreed. Thanks should be given to the taxpayers for the bailout that saved near 1 million jobs nationwide. It is shortsighted, ignorant, and outright bias hatred toward unions to say they are to blame 100% as GM has admitted fault.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young