Religious beleifs vs. State law

[Coreece 190]

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I'm guessing you're never going to see my point.

Oh, I understand your point...I was there before.

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I will admittedly never understand.

Of course you'll never understand if you keep entertaining these strawmen about christianity. Of course you'll never uderstand if you're constantly searching for a negative prespective with which to distance yourself. Of course you'll never understand if you keep on relying on other people's prespectives and their negative actions to shape your idea of christianity without delving into it yourself.

You don't understand because you can't understand. You can't understand because you don't want to understand.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[freethefly 6]

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It is commanded (not requested) in Scripture for you to repent and believe.

I am only assuming that your belief is aligned with Pascal's Wager. In other words, it is better to believe (whether a person actually believe) than to face the consequence of not believing (providing that there is a consequence.)
To tell a person that they better start believing, or they will burn in Hell for eternity, is to assume that a person has complete control over belief. That is called doxastic voluntarism. In other other words, we have the ability to just go from no belief to total belief on a whim. We do not have control over believing or not believing like we have control over turning a light on or off.
An atheist can no more just flip a switch and believe in a god as a true believer cannot just flip a switch and stop believing.
No one can simply be commanded to believe in anything. Nor can a person just command them self to believe.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[jakee 1,500]

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I don't know, it's your religion.
I was always told to had to admit to sin and that you "fucked up" your life and needed the invisible guy in it to "save yourself".

Just seems silly to me that I would have to present myself as a lowly fuck-up who couldn't exist without a non-being accepting me as a loser.

God' existence has nothing to do with you. God also does not "need" you for anything. That's one of His attributes (Solitude). He did not have to condescend Himself to pay the penalty for those in active rebellion against Him. But He did anyway out of His grace. He is withholding judgment against you currently out of his mercy. God will be glorified either by you repenting, placing your faith in Him, and spending eternity with Him ... or God will be glorified in the judgment and punishment for your sin after you die, and you spending an eternity in hell. Either way, God is holy and "just." But don't think for one second that you're doing God some kind of favor by saying you're sorry and turning to Him. It is commanded (not requested) in Scripture for you to repent and believe.

That doesn't even make sense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[grimmie 186]

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I don't know, it's your religion.
I was always told to had to admit to sin and that you "fucked up" your life and needed the invisible guy in it to "save yourself".

Just seems silly to me that I would have to present myself as a lowly fuck-up who couldn't exist without a non-being accepting me as a loser.

God' existence has nothing to do with you. God also does not "need" you for anything. That's one of His attributes (Solitude). He did not have to condescend Himself to pay the penalty for those in active rebellion against Him. But He did anyway out of His grace. He is withholding judgment against you currently out of his mercy. God will be glorified either by you repenting, placing your faith in Him, and spending eternity with Him ... or God will be glorified in the judgment and punishment for your sin after you die, and you spending an eternity in hell. Either way, God is holy and "just." But don't think for one second that you're doing God some kind of favor by saying you're sorry and turning to Him. It is commanded (not requested) in Scripture for you to repent and believe.

That doesn't even make sense.

Thanks jakee, damn, I read that over and over trying to figure out what he was trying to say.

[jakee 1,500]

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I don't know, it's your religion.
I was always told to had to admit to sin and that you "fucked up" your life and needed the invisible guy in it to "save yourself".

Just seems silly to me that I would have to present myself as a lowly fuck-up who couldn't exist without a non-being accepting me as a loser.

God' existence has nothing to do with you. God also does not "need" you for anything. That's one of His attributes (Solitude). He did not have to condescend Himself to pay the penalty for those in active rebellion against Him. But He did anyway out of His grace. He is withholding judgment against you currently out of his mercy. God will be glorified either by you repenting, placing your faith in Him, and spending eternity with Him ... or God will be glorified in the judgment and punishment for your sin after you die, and you spending an eternity in hell. Either way, God is holy and "just." But don't think for one second that you're doing God some kind of favor by saying you're sorry and turning to Him. It is commanded (not requested) in Scripture for you to repent and believe.

That doesn't even make sense.

Thanks jakee, damn, I read that over and over trying to figure out what he was trying to say.

God is big. You are small. Therefore, God exists!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[grimmie 186]

Whew, thanks for clearing that all up.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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God is big. You are small. Therefore, God exists!

Not just big, really huge

[base283 0]

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They don't have to use the triangle. they can opt not to drive their buggies on the public road. Religious beliefs do not trump state law, nor should they. A similar group here in Alberta, the Hutterites, refused to get pictures on their drivers licenses. The Supreme court of Canada ruled against them.
Freedom of religion does not include the right to endanger others on the road.

How does lack of a photo endanger others? Or have i missed something?
take care,
space

[Andy9o8 2]

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They don't have to use the triangle. they can opt not to drive their buggies on the public road. Religious beliefs do not trump state law, nor should they. A similar group here in Alberta, the Hutterites, refused to get pictures on their drivers licenses. The Supreme court of Canada ruled against them.
Freedom of religion does not include the right to endanger others on the road.

How does lack of a photo endanger others? Or have i missed something?

You have missed something. He was simply using the photo case as an analogy - another example of how, in the tension between religious beliefs and legal requirements, sometimes the courts rule that the legal requirements must prevail.

[base283 0]

Thanks for the claification. I see now the point but was just misled by his example.
Take care,
space

[Southern_Man 0]

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Walking the walk doesn't necessarily mean that you lead a perfect life, and though I think the Amish sin everyday in their own way, they come pretty close to prefection.

I highly doubt that they are close to perfection. Amish sects have been involved in drug dealing, bootlegging, and other crimes. Some sects allow alcohol. Some years back, an Amish man, who was clearly intoxicated, was allowed to do a tandem at a DZ in this area. I was there. They TM is a good friend of mine. Even though I, and a few others, raised an objection to the jump, it happened anyways. Years ago, when I smoked pot, the Amish were the ones to get it from in PA.. Often saw them in bars outside of Harrisburg.
I think they are no different than anyone else. You'll find good and bad in all sectors of society the world over.

Doesn't even begin to touch on the rampant child sexual abuse and incest in those communities.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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They don't have to use the triangle. they can opt not to drive their buggies on the public road. Religious beliefs do not trump state law, nor should they. A similar group here in Alberta, the Hutterites, refused to get pictures on their drivers licenses. The Supreme court of Canada ruled against them.
Freedom of religion does not include the right to endanger others on the road.

How does lack of a photo endanger others? Or have i missed something?
take care,
space

one driver's license could be shared among many men, but only one person would have to pass the testing requirements. Unlicensed drivers have long been a threat to society.

[tkhayes 348]

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They are sheltered from the negative influences from the outside world....

Some would argue that they are then only negatively influenced by their INSIDE world.

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They ditch the garbs, grab a beer, light up a smoke and peal out in a sports car...

Or they go to school, get a education, a job/pursuit that exploits their abilities not just the needs of the 'clan', and see the real world that we live in.

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There are many christians that don't impose their belief on others.

And there are so many that do - including the RW nuts that are still trying to get ID in the local schools.

If the Amish want to be part of the American way of life, just by living here, then they are going to have to conform to 'some' of the rules at the very least, just like the rest of us. I don't dislike them - I have my own level of respect of them, but at the same time, if you want to drive a horse-drawn buggy on a State Road, then you are taking a level of risk. just sayin'

[Coreece 190]

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They are sheltered from the negative influences from the outside world....

Some would argue that they are then only negatively influenced by their INSIDE world.

No reason to argue...relax...no need for capitalized emphasis...

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They ditch the garbs, grab a beer, light up a smoke and peal out in a sports car...

Or they go to school, get a education, a job/pursuit that exploits their abilities not just the needs of the 'clan', and see the real world that we live in.

Ya, I believe they have the option to leave when they're 18.

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There are many christians that don't impose their belief on others.

And there are so many that do - including the RW nuts

And so many more that don't...

besides...If you want a proper education, then go private...

I went to a private school...they taught about evolution with a sense of objective relativity, not religion like so many treat it today.

The public school system here is shit.

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If the Amish want to be part of the American way of life, just by living here, then they are going to have to conform to 'some' of the rules at the very least, just like the rest of us. I don't dislike them - I have my own level of respect of them, but at the same time, if you want to drive a horse-drawn buggy on a State Road, then you are taking a level of risk. just sayin'

It's not risk...just stupidity that puts others at risk.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[popsjumper 2]

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if you want to drive a horse-drawn buggy on a State Road, then you are taking a level of risk. just sayin'

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It's not risk...just stupidity that puts others at risk.

Would you be a-saying' that about cycling in the road?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Coreece 190]

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if you want to drive a horse-drawn buggy on a State Road, then you are taking a level of risk. just sayin'

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It's not risk...just stupidity that puts others at risk.

Would you be a-saying' that about cycling in the road?

Without reflectors? ya, of course...that's what this is about, right...not having reflectors?

Pretty stupid to drive a bike at night without a reflector...wouldn't you say Pops?

IMO this has more to do with stubborness not religion.

Show me where in the Bible it says "thou shalt not reflect the light."

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[popsjumper 2]

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Would you be a-saying' that about cycling in the road?

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Without reflectors? ya, of course...that's what this is about, right...not having reflectors?

Well, I thought the OP was about having a certain type of reflector, not about having no reflectors at all.

It wasn't a dig on you, BTW. It was a dig on cyclists blindly riding in the road blaming others for hitting them while playing in traffic (from another thread). Sorry. I should have taken your name out of the subject line.

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Pretty stupid to drive a bike at night without a reflector...wouldn't you say Pops?

Heck, I think it's very risky and stupid to ride in the road at night even with reflectors.

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IMO this has more to do with stubborness not religion.

I couldn't argue against that since the interpretation is only being argued by, so far as I know, just the one guy and/or his "community/family".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 806]

You're correct Andy, they DO have reflectors.
Just not the approved and mandated shape.

I also like that the state then allowed them special uniforms in jail. Dark colors instead of the day-glo orange.
The state seems to say "we understand your religious color and shape issues and we'll make some changes in jail, but not in the outside world.

[Coreece 190]

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The state seems to say "we understand your religious color and shape issues and we'll make some changes in jail, but not in the outside world.

Ya, because wearing those colors doesn't hurt people...especially when they are behind bars.

From the reports that I've read, the men took exception to the bright colors and depending on man-made objects for their safety.

This ridiculous application of their man-made principles puts others at risk...plain and simple.

I doubt they could defend their position with scripture. They may say "these bright orange made-made symbols aren't modest..." but they certainly aren't for the purpose of arrogance...

I seriously doubt people are gonna drive by thinking that amish people are like "hey, look at us...we got Jesus and have a big abnoxious symbol of the Trinity to prove it...suckers!!!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...