jaybird18c 24 #76 October 14, 2011 Quotenot necessarily - it could also have be expanding and contracting for all of eternity. To say that 'it clearly...' demonstrates that you are not open to other possibilities. It may not have started from a 'point' i.e. infinity small with infinite mass, but it may simply have been smaller. And who knows, our 'universe' may simply be an atom in yet another larger universe where the people endlessly argue about 'god' and creation and whether or not Horton heard the Who..... Seriously, is that what you're placing your faith in? It doesn't matter how small or immeasurable you go with it (with regard to.the big bang) or even how many cycles you theorize it may have gone through). At some point, you have to come face to face with who started it and sustains it. If that obviously very intelligent entity is the God of the Bible, however, that changes everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #77 October 14, 2011 QuoteIt doesn't matter how small or immeasurable you go with it (with regard to.the big bang) or even how many cycles you theorize it may have gone through). At some point, you have to come face to face with who started it and sustains it. Why? You're still trying to argue that eternity is both the insurmountable problem and the unarguable solution. Good luck with that. QuoteIf that obviously very intelligent entity Yes, because a super intelligent, super powerful entity just existing is far more plausible than the universe just existing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #78 October 14, 2011 Quote Yes, because a super intelligent, super powerful entity just existing is far more plausible than the universe just existing. It is when you consider the organization, complexity, and obvious design of everything around us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #79 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuote Yes, because a super intelligent, super powerful entity just existing is far more plausible than the universe just existing. It is when you consider the organization, complexity, and obvious design of everything around us. An organised, complex, intelligent and powerful being is far, far more obviously the result another process.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #80 October 14, 2011 QuoteAn organised, complex, intelligent and powerful being is far, far more obviously the result another process. God is not temporal. He isn't subject to the rules of physical organization that He Himself created. He is "infinitely" intelligent and powerful, however. He is also personal and relational. Incomprehensible on many levels, I understand, but true. What we know about Him has been revealed through "general revelation (creation/conscience)" and "special revelation (Scripture)." He has not left us in the dark. However, realization that everything around us didn't happen "just by chance" can only take you so far. But it's a start. No amount of argumentation can convince you or anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #81 October 14, 2011 And zero evidence to back up this claim. All you have is an imagined god based on ancient texts of questionable origin. While there is much evidence of an evolutionary process that continues today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #82 October 14, 2011 Quote Quote An organised, complex, intelligent and powerful being is far, far more obviously the result another process. God is not temporal. He isn't subject to the rules of physical organization that He Himself created. And, uh, what exactly is it that you think that lame cop out means? Quote He is "infinitely" intelligent and powerful, however. Yet again, you're using infinty as both the problem and the solution. Quote Incomprehensible on many levels, I understand, but true. Incomprehensible, and bullshit. Quote No amount of argumentation can convince you or anyone else. Not argumentation of your quality, that's for sureDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #83 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteYour expanding contracting theory is an interesting one but personally to say that the small mass has always been and will always be is a lot less plausible to me than the theory that the mass was created somehow at some point. By something that always was and always will be, or by something that was itself created? Who knows?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #84 October 14, 2011 QuoteIf that obviously very intelligent entity is the God of the Bible, however, that changes everything. But the god of the bible isn't very intelligent of course. The very book he produced/inspired exhibits a knowledge of the universe that far below that of the level of knowledge of an average educated high-school kid. the creator apparently is too stupid to understand his own creation. Unless he got severely brain-damaged before he wrote/inspired the damn thing, I hardly think the bible is a convincing proof for the existence of god. Far from it to be honest, nothing was more destructive to my faith then that bundle of nonsense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #85 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour expanding contracting theory is an interesting one but personally to say that the small mass has always been and will always be is a lot less plausible to me than the theory that the mass was created somehow at some point. By something that always was and always will be, or by something that was itself created? Who knows? You see your problem, right?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #86 October 14, 2011 Quote...you have to come face to face with who started it and sustains it... No I don't. Just because you cannot handle the concept of infinity does not mean that I have to also share your views. Your basis is that there was a beginning and therefore a creator of some sort. I have no trouble with the concept that all matter and energy always was, just in different forms. Was there there something before the big bang? Probably, even most definitely. What was? I have no idea but I expect science will get closer to that as time goes on, but probably not in our lifetime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #87 October 14, 2011 Not at all. My belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. And for all the rationalism of the atheists around here they can't prove their strange theories any more than I can give you a science experiment that proves the existence of God. In the end it simply comes down to what you believe, time tells all.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #88 October 14, 2011 QuoteMy belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. Because you're only following it as far as you want to go, and ignoring what comes next. You've decided that the origin of the universe is mysterious enough to demand the existence of a god, and claim that as the basis for a life changing decision, but you don't care when faced with the same question about the origin of that god. All you do by proposing a god is move the perceived problem one step back and make it worse.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #89 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteMy belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. Because you're only following it as far as you want to go, and ignoring what comes next. You've decided that the origin of the universe is mysterious enough to demand the existence of a god, and claim that as the basis for a life changing decision, but you don't care when faced with the same question about the origin of that god. All you do by proposing a god is move the perceived problem one step back and make it worse. Depends on the god you believe in. If your god requires a beginning, or has a beginning myth (see Greek Mythology) then yes. If your god is outside of time, then no. Its funny that a lot of atheists slam theists for saying, "God is eternal and doesn't have a beginning" but will turn right around and say, "The universe is eternal and doesn't have a beginning."You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #90 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteMy belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. Because you're only following it as far as you want to go, and ignoring what comes next. You've decided that the origin of the universe is mysterious enough to demand the existence of a god, and claim that as the basis for a life changing decision, but you don't care when faced with the same question about the origin of that god. All you do by proposing a god is move the perceived problem one step back and make it worse. looks to me that you're either trying to wind me up or you genuinely are incapable of understanding simple English. Either way I really can't be bothered to try and attempt to explain what I've written again. I'm off for the weekend, see if you can improve your English comprehension while I'm gone.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #91 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. Because you're only following it as far as you want to go, and ignoring what comes next. You've decided that the origin of the universe is mysterious enough to demand the existence of a god, and claim that as the basis for a life changing decision, but you don't care when faced with the same question about the origin of that god. All you do by proposing a god is move the perceived problem one step back and make it worse. Depends on the god you believe in. If your god requires a beginning, or has a beginning myth (see Greek Mythology) then yes. If your god is outside of time, then no. Its funny that a lot of atheists slam theists for saying, "God is eternal and doesn't have a beginning" but will turn right around and say, "The universe is eternal and doesn't have a beginning." Well at least you get what I wrote, I was beginning to think I was writing in Serbocroat.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #92 October 14, 2011 Quote I was beginning to think I was writing in SerboCroat. Dobro dan! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 October 14, 2011 QuoteIn the end it simply comes down to what you believe, time tells all. Just acknowledging that one has a position (a "faith") one way or the other and tolerating that others might have different subjective positions...... that's crazy - with that attitude, we wouldn't even have an angry and contentious Speaker's Corner ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #94 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy belief makes more sense to me than anything I've heard here. Because you're only following it as far as you want to go, and ignoring what comes next. You've decided that the origin of the universe is mysterious enough to demand the existence of a god, and claim that as the basis for a life changing decision, but you don't care when faced with the same question about the origin of that god. All you do by proposing a god is move the perceived problem one step back and make it worse. Depends on the god you believe in. If your god requires a beginning, or has a beginning myth (see Greek Mythology) then yes. If your god is outside of time, then no. That doesn't help you. First, it's just defining away the problem without actually solving it, second, the invention of the category 'out of time' removes the need for a creator to begin the universe. QuoteIts funny that a lot of atheists slam theists for saying, "God is eternal and doesn't have a beginning" but will turn right around and say, "The universe is eternal and doesn't have a beginning." You misrepresent the conversation. Atheists slam theists for saying "There must be a God because everything needs to begin!" shortly followed by "God doesn't need to begin!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #95 October 14, 2011 Quotelooks to me that you're either trying to wind me up or you genuinely are incapable of understanding simple English. Either way I really can't be bothered to try and attempt to explain what I've written again. I'm off for the weekend, see if you can improve your English comprehension while I'm gone. Looks to me that you've got no way of defending your argument so you're just resorting to bluster and PAs. Look, the first cause argument has been around for millenia and it's always had serious flaws. If you think you're the guy who's been able to solve them, well congrats, you're a genius. Get yourself written up in a philosophy journal.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #96 October 14, 2011 Quote That doesn't help you. First, it's just defining away the problem without actually solving it, I'm not sure how it's defining the problem away. If anything, it's defining what the supposed problem is about. You can't begin to solve a problem unless you know the characteristics of the items in said problem. Quote second, the invention of the category 'out of time' removes the need for a creator to begin the universe. This doesn't follow. At least, not w/o further explanation. Not sure how you got here. QuoteIts funny that a lot of atheists slam theists for saying, "God is eternal and doesn't have a beginning" but will turn right around and say, "The universe is eternal and doesn't have a beginning." You misrepresent the conversation.It was a general observation Quote Atheists slam theists for saying "There must be a God because everything needs to begin!" shortly followed by "God doesn't need to begin!"The more correct argument is "everything that is caused must have a causer / everything with a beginning must have a beginner, etc" Which then goes back to, if the claim is, "Since the Universe had a beginning, and God thus began it" we evaluate, "Does God have a beginning?" If yes, see recursion scenarios. If no, stop.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #97 October 14, 2011 QuoteQuote That doesn't help you. First, it's just defining away the problem without actually solving it I'm not sure how it's defining the problem away. If anything, it's defining what the supposed problem is about. You can't begin to solve a problem unless you know the characteristics of the items in said problem. Yeah, exactly. You're defining the problem in terms beneficial to your argument and defining the solution in terms beneficial to your argument, and then claiming that because you say it fits that you don't need to explain it. Just because you difine god as having those characteristics does not mean it makes any shred of sense. QuoteQuote second, the invention of the category 'out of time' removes the need for a creator to begin the universe. This doesn't follow. At least, not w/o further explanation. Not sure how you got here. Explain why god is the only thing that could exist 'out of time'. QuoteQuoteIts funny that a lot of atheists slam theists for saying, "God is eternal and doesn't have a beginning" but will turn right around and say, "The universe is eternal and doesn't have a beginning." You misrepresent the conversation.It was a general observation Misrepresented. QuoteQuote Atheists slam theists for saying "There must be a God because everything needs to begin!" shortly followed by "God doesn't need to begin!"The more correct argument is "everything that is caused must have a causer / everything with a beginning must have a beginner, etc" Which then goes back to, if the claim is, "Since the Universe had a beginning, and God thus began it" we evaluate, "Does God have a beginning?" If yes, see recursion scenarios. If no, stop. Caused/causer and beginning/beginner are not the same thing. And let me guess, your answer to the question you pose is 'No'? Quelle surprise. Allow me to refer you back to the start of this post.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #98 October 14, 2011 QuoteBut the god of the bible isn't very intelligent of course. The very book he produced/inspired exhibits a knowledge of the universe that far below that of the level of knowledge of an average educated high-school kid.Quote Hmmmmm...I can see it now... God: Well, Abraham, let's talk. Let me explain Quantum Mechanics to you. Abraham: Huh?!?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #99 October 14, 2011 Quoteany more than I can give you a science experiment that proves the existence of God. But...but....that's what they are demanding!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #100 October 14, 2011 Quotelooks to me that .... ...you're starting to catch on.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
popsjumper 2 #99 October 14, 2011 Quoteany more than I can give you a science experiment that proves the existence of God. But...but....that's what they are demanding!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #100 October 14, 2011 Quotelooks to me that .... ...you're starting to catch on.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
