nigel99 466 #76 October 24, 2011 Quote"rationalise your belief" The question alone is invalid. Faith doesn't require rationalization. That's why it's called faith. Ok then call it reconcile your belief.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #77 October 24, 2011 Quote"rationalise your belief" The question alone is invalid. Faith doesn't require rationalization. That's why it's called faith. Right..and if god was real it wouldn't require faith to believe in him."Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #78 October 24, 2011 QuoteI am curious how people (not only Christians) rationalise their beliefs? How can you assume that your version/understanding of God is correct and everyone else is wrong? Specifically how can you look yourself in the mirror and honestly believe in your God, while firmly believing that other religions God's are simply figments of their imagination? Since it's a matter of faith - predicated on the requirement that there is no proof - then it should be a matter of choice only. No rationalization required. Anyone that tries to 'explain' it - IMO - doesn't really understand the concept of religious faith. In other words - I don't get why people on either side of the fence are trying to "prove" anything. Seems like a huge pissing match to me. Anyway - same old answer to the same old tired smug thread we've seen dozens of times a year. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #79 October 24, 2011 QuoteNo rationalization required. Yet several people have stated on here how they rationalize their beliefs. I think most adults have rationalized their religious beliefs one way or another. For some, it might be as simple as deciding that it's wrong to even question what they were taught growing up, and for others it might involve questioning to the point of changing beliefs. But I suspect that most adults have at least had a moment of looking at their religion (or lack of religion) and asking themselves if it is "right," and I would call that rationalizing one's beliefs. (I'm using the positive/neutral definition of "rationalize" here, not the negative definition. Not sure if that is what the OP intended.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #80 October 24, 2011 QuoteYou guys have turned me into primetime USDA choice trollfu... There is only one person responsible for your behavior. When I feel like I'm getting nothing but negativity from this site, I leave it alone for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #81 October 24, 2011 Quote Right..and if god was real it wouldn't require faith to believe in him. You've missed the point. It is not a question of having faith to believe in God. It is that God gives us faith to deal with the unsolvable problems in life.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doyle 0 #82 October 24, 2011 And if god gave us the "gift of faith" to deal with these unsolvable problems (like his own existence) then a piss poor effort I say, if he/she/it is the all knowing, benevolent, divine being that most religions claim "god" to be, he could have left behind proof and some answers to save humanity from the war, pain and suffering his name has brought throughout the ages i.e. religious wars, cults, inhumane and unjust punishment, sacrifices, etc etc.... That's what "he gave us" with faith. I think a better way to deal unsolvable problems in life is just accept that they are unknown and sometimes unknowable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #83 October 24, 2011 Quote I think a better way to deal unsolvable problems in life is just accept that they are unknown and sometimes unknowable. What if they are personal, unavoidable and life threatening?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #84 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteNo rationalization required. Yet several people have stated on here how they rationalize their beliefs. I think most adults have rationalized their religious beliefs one way or another. For some, it might be as simple as deciding that it's wrong to even question what they were taught growing up, and for others it might involve questioning to the point of changing beliefs. But I suspect that most adults have at least had a moment of looking at their religion (or lack of religion) and asking themselves if it is "right," and I would call that rationalizing one's beliefs. (I'm using the positive/neutral definition of "rationalize" here, not the negative definition. Not sure if that is what the OP intended.) sure, but I'd say a need to rationalize it is counter productive to the real end game - in other words, they have to rationalize it because they are not really fully committed. and, by definition, that would just be an exercise in futility. But I hope it makes them feel better - that's all they can achieve. so they are really rationalizing 'away' their lack of faith - This isn't bad or good, if an individual 'needs' some kind of faith in their life, then finding a way to shore that up is healthy. If they don't need it, then rationalizing it would be unhealthy. What I find mostly unhealthy is one person's need to piss all over someone else's belief - like it's really their business. I wish it were more direct and people just ask - "is it right for me" and stop pissing on each other when they make alternate choices - I find it very instructive to see how an atheist responds to being told "I'll pray for you" (given sincerely, like in terms of a sickness or a loss). Do they blow up and tell the other person they are deluded? or do they just say thanks, since the intent is well wishes. I've seen both. I've also seen a religious person get really upset when an atheist refuses to pray for someone, but says they'll "keep them in their thoughts" or equivalent. people are weird ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #85 October 24, 2011 Quote perhaps God will give me the grace to give a fuck and reply to Marinus/shotgun, because they are the only ones worthy of a response. WTF happened here? O well, what the heck, let's just marry and grow old together Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #86 October 24, 2011 Quote Quote perhaps God will give me the grace to give a fuck and reply to Marinus/shotgun, because they are the only ones worthy of a response. WTF happened here? O well, what the heck, let's just marry and grow old together All three of us??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #87 October 24, 2011 Quotepeople are weird another thing, I think I can count on one hand, in my entire life where I felt I met someone that completely and sincerely actually seemed to be truly faithful - at least to how I'd visualize it. They just quietly and with dignity had their belief and didn't make a big deal out of it in any way at all, nor did they need to prove it to themselves or others, nor did they much care if others felt differently. they were very nice people - about as decent as one can be but it's very rare (I suspect there are more, but they'd be stealthy by definition - especially around an agnostic-apathetic like me) - IMO I also suspect that someone of faith that could be near that point in their beliefs could be very easily tipped one way or the other (insecure-has-to-rationalize-it, vs the gotta-convert-everyone, vs the in-your-face types) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #88 October 24, 2011 QuoteI am curious how people (not only Christians) rationalise their beliefs? How can you assume that your version/understanding of God is correct and everyone else is wrong? Specifically how can you look yourself in the mirror and honestly believe in your God, while firmly believing that other religions God's are simply figments of their imagination? I don't believe any such thing. You are broadly overgeneralizing a view held by fundamentalists. There are a great many thinking Christians, many of whom, myself included, not only respect the beliefs of others, but have doubts and questions about our own beliefs. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #89 October 24, 2011 Quote All three of us??? Yes, of course, till death do us part!Oh, I'm worse than the Maffia, btw, once you're in, you're in!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 466 #90 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteI am curious how people (not only Christians) rationalise their beliefs? How can you assume that your version/understanding of God is correct and everyone else is wrong? Specifically how can you look yourself in the mirror and honestly believe in your God, while firmly believing that other religions God's are simply figments of their imagination? I don't believe any such thing. You are broadly overgeneralizing a view held by fundamentalists. There are a great many thinking Christians, many of whom, myself included, not only respect the beliefs of others, but have doubts and questions about our own beliefs. True about the generalisation. 90% of my family are religious fundamentalists and believe exactly as I stated it (including my wife btw).Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #91 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou guys have turned me into primetime USDA choice trollfu... There is only one person responsible for your behavior. When I feel like I'm getting nothing but negativity from this site, I leave it alone for a while. Very well my love...It appears I've fallen arse over tit and have gone bloody barmy. I shall retire to the sitting room for tea and crumpets and rest my rump on a sag bag while gazing aimlessly out a window until I regain my wit. You and Marinus needn't wait up for me...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #92 October 24, 2011 Quoteanother thing, I think I can count on one hand, in my entire life where I felt I met someone that completely and sincerely actually seemed to be truly faithful Really? I know a lot of people who I would consider to be truly faithful, many in my own family. And most of them seem to be very good people. I don't know how most of them feel about my beliefs, because it's rarely come up. Though I have talked about my beliefs with several of my religious friends, and we've always managed to be respectful of each other's beliefs. Quoteinsecure-has-to-rationalize-it I think you and I are using two different definitions of "rationalize." I was talking about looking at things from a rational point of view; I thought that was what the OP meant, but maybe he meant the "making excuses" definition? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #93 October 24, 2011 I'll join you for tea and crumpets! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #94 October 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteanother thing, I think I can count on one hand, in my entire life where I felt I met someone that completely and sincerely actually seemed to be truly faithful Really? I know a lot of people who I would consider to be truly faithful, many in my own family. And most of them seem to be very good people. I don't know how most of them feel about my beliefs, because it's rarely come up. Though I have talked about my beliefs with several of my religious friends, and we've always managed to be respectful of each other's beliefs. Quoteinsecure-has-to-rationalize-it I think you and I are using two different definitions of "rationalize." I was talking about looking at things from a rational point of view; I thought that was what the OP meant, but maybe he meant the "making excuses" definition? 1 - for the first part - I'm pretty cynical about people. You do have a better outlook on people than I do. Don't change. 2 - I think we are using the same version of "rationalize". You are simply more forgiving in allowing someone of "faith" to have their justifications and not call it a contradiction. I just really believe that being faithful, by definition, absolutely cannot have any aspect of rationality. It's pure belief in the absence of any type of proof either way. To me, it means flip a coin, since it doesn't matter either way. For the faithful - it means they believe it, and it doesn't have to 'explain' anything, it's just their's and it's personal and no one else's business. They always flip heads on that coin. They pretty much shouldn't be able to 'explain' themselves and why they believe - no proof - no need for proof - it's who they are - it's not a crutch - etc. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #95 October 24, 2011 These religion threads are exactly like the political threads. The same teams of certain posters trying to convert the other team of certain posters.No wonder our parents taught us to never discuss religion or politics in public. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #96 October 24, 2011 QuoteThese religion threads are exactly like the political threads. Except no-one would ever argue that it's ridiculous to be asked to give reasons why liberal policies are better than conservative ones, or why candidate Thompson is more qualified than candidate Thomson. I really, really don't get this 'it's faith, therefore immune to reason' thing. If you have faith in god, then you think god is real. If you think faith in any particular god is important (in terms of afterlife etc.) then deciding which god is real is the most important decision you'll ever make... and yet it's not only not worthy of more detailed inquiry than such humdrum temporal matters as who to vote for, it's apparently not worthy of any rational inquiry whatsoever. I find it very strange.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doyle 0 #97 October 25, 2011 Are you able to give me an example so I can better understand your question? I cannot think of any unsolvable problem that requires the belief/faith in a deity to be "dealt with". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #98 October 25, 2011 QuoteI am curious how people (not only Christians) rationalise their beliefs? I rationalize/test my faith/understanding of spiritual reality by what works. If you know the Truth, then the Truth should set you free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #99 October 25, 2011 QuoteIt's pure belief in the absence of any type of proof either way. I don't know. I think a lot of believers believe that they have experienced proof that God exists (though perhaps their idea of proof differs from mine, but hey, it's usually none of my business). I think that being faithful involves more than just the belief in God; it also has to do with having faith that God is good, that God will guide you, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 466 #100 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteanother thing, I think I can count on one hand, in my entire life where I felt I met someone that completely and sincerely actually seemed to be truly faithful Really? I know a lot of people who I would consider to be truly faithful, many in my own family. And most of them seem to be very good people. I don't know how most of them feel about my beliefs, because it's rarely come up. Though I have talked about my beliefs with several of my religious friends, and we've always managed to be respectful of each other's beliefs. Quoteinsecure-has-to-rationalize-it I think you and I are using two different definitions of "rationalize." I was talking about looking at things from a rational point of view; I thought that was what the OP meant, but maybe he meant the "making excuses" definition? I think you and Rehmwa are both correct (as he outlines in his response to your post). I did not mean rationalise as in making excuses, but rather looking at things in a rational manner. I believe it is possible to examine your religious beliefs in a rational manner, and some people do. Just because they come from a different starting point to 'us', doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 4 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Shotgun 1 #99 October 25, 2011 QuoteIt's pure belief in the absence of any type of proof either way. I don't know. I think a lot of believers believe that they have experienced proof that God exists (though perhaps their idea of proof differs from mine, but hey, it's usually none of my business). I think that being faithful involves more than just the belief in God; it also has to do with having faith that God is good, that God will guide you, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 466 #100 October 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteanother thing, I think I can count on one hand, in my entire life where I felt I met someone that completely and sincerely actually seemed to be truly faithful Really? I know a lot of people who I would consider to be truly faithful, many in my own family. And most of them seem to be very good people. I don't know how most of them feel about my beliefs, because it's rarely come up. Though I have talked about my beliefs with several of my religious friends, and we've always managed to be respectful of each other's beliefs. Quoteinsecure-has-to-rationalize-it I think you and I are using two different definitions of "rationalize." I was talking about looking at things from a rational point of view; I thought that was what the OP meant, but maybe he meant the "making excuses" definition? I think you and Rehmwa are both correct (as he outlines in his response to your post). I did not mean rationalise as in making excuses, but rather looking at things in a rational manner. I believe it is possible to examine your religious beliefs in a rational manner, and some people do. Just because they come from a different starting point to 'us', doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
