pirana 0 #26 October 29, 2011 QuoteLol, no I meant as in something greater than yourself. For a good chunk of the population, a pile of dung meets the criteria." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #27 October 29, 2011 QuoteWhen one is banging their head against a wall in an addictive feedback loop, one of the tools that has been known to work is to bear in mind that there is precious little over which one has actual control. Strange that people give themselves up to some make believe power, which somehow empowers them to kick an addiction, proving they had the ability to do so all along. I guess if it works, cool; but shows how unaware those people are of the power of the self; even after they've put it to work." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyerer 0 #28 October 29, 2011 Possibly a skydiving analogy would be helpful here. In order to fly, as skydivers we must learn to surrender to the wind, which is a force far greater than ourselves that we cannot control. That does not mean we discontinue using our minds and bodies to manage what we can. When we do, we begin to fly. A person who believes in God, or Mohammed, or a higher power, or (you fill in the blank) simply recognizes this same reality in their life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #29 October 29, 2011 QuoteCan you please explain to me what this means? Making the value system of the Creator, your value system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #30 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteCan you please explain to me what this means? Essentially, it means you've given up believing in yourself. Why that's helpful is beyond me. Of course it's beyond you. Why would anyone think anything different? The rest of us, OTOH, are not all-knowing and all-powerful and often can benefit from a helping hand from others.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #31 October 31, 2011 QuoteThe rest of us, OTOH, are not all-knowing and all-powerful and often can benefit from a helping hand from others. A helping hand from others (meaning humans) is not a "higher power." AA's 12 steps is bullshit starting with step #1.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #32 October 31, 2011 QuoteStrange that people give themselves up to some make believe power, which somehow empowers them to kick an addiction, proving they had the ability to do so all along. I guess if it works, cool; Absolutely! Quote...but shows how unaware those people are of the power of the self; even after they've put it to work. ...so why the need to belittle them?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #33 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe rest of us, OTOH, are not all-knowing and all-powerful and often can benefit from a helping hand from others. A helping hand from others (meaning humans) is not a "higher power." Ignorant nonsense even with your restriction to "humans".My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #34 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe rest of us, OTOH, are not all-knowing and all-powerful and often can benefit from a helping hand from others. A helping hand from others (meaning humans) is not a "higher power." Ignorant nonsense even with your restriction to "humans". Piffle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5LJgk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3xoYquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #35 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe rest of us, OTOH, are not all-knowing and all-powerful and often can benefit from a helping hand from others. A helping hand from others (meaning humans) is not a "higher power." AA's 12 steps is bullshit starting with step #1. A "helping hand from others" can very well be a higher power. http://12and12.net/pdfs/StepTwo.pdf Quote"This is only one man's opinion based on his experience, of course. I must quickly assure you that A.A.'s tread innumerable paths in their quest for faith. If you don't care for the one I've suggested, you'll be sure to discover one that suits if only you look and listen. Many a man like you has begun to solve the problem by the method of substitution. You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your 'Higher Power.' Here's a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith will be enough. You will find many members that have crossed the threshold just this way." AA's own book says that using the group as a higher power is one way to find faith. And calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism, and has been successfully adapted and applied to other addiction issues. Drugs, food, gambling and many others. I don't know your personal experience of course, but unless you have seen, up close and personal, how cunning, baffling and powerful alcoholism/addiction can be, you really can't understand."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #36 October 31, 2011 QuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism, and has been successfully adapted and applied to other addiction issues. Drugs, food, gambling and many others. That it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. Those twelve steps are nothing more then meaningless spiritual mumbo jumbo if you're a non-believer like me. But if it works for people why not, it probably wouldn't work for me as placebos don't work if you know it's a placebo. QuoteI don't know your personal experience of course, but unless you have seen, up close and personal, how cunning, baffling and powerful alcoholism/addiction can be, you really can't understand. I've seen it up close and personal how a loved one drank himself to death, so I know what alcoholism is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #37 October 31, 2011 Quote But if it works for people why not, it probably wouldn't work for me as placebos don't work if you know it's a placebo. Actually that is not true. For some reason placebos still work even if you know it is a placebo. A strange effect that I admit I have no understanding of."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #38 October 31, 2011 Quote....you really can't understand. Apparently, understanding is not a requirement for the nutters.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 October 31, 2011 QuoteThat it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. ???? Geez...you'll have to explain that one.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #40 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteThat it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. ???? Geez...you'll have to explain that one. Think of it as a mantra. Its effectiveness has nothing to do with the literal veracity of its content. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #41 October 31, 2011 QuoteThat it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. Those twelve steps are nothing more then meaningless spiritual mumbo jumbo if you're a non-believer like me. But if it works for people why not, it probably wouldn't work for me as placebos don't work if you know it's a placebo. QuoteI don't know your personal experience of course, but unless you have seen, up close and personal, how cunning, baffling and powerful alcoholism/addiction can be, you really can't understand. I've seen it up close and personal how a loved one drank himself to death, so I know what alcoholism is. Even for non-believers (atheists and agnostics) it can be a lot more than "Mumbo Jumbo". Applied properly, it can be a fairly simple way to live life in a manner that allows one to accept life as it is, and not need to run away and hide in a bottle. In short, clean up the messes made, learn from the mistakes so that you don't make as many messes in the future. Clean up any new messes promptly and try to learn from the mistakes so that fewer and fewer messes are made. Although the "Higher Power" concept is usually taken to mean "God", it is really a way to reign in selfishness and self-centeredness. Stopping putting "Me" at the front of the line and stomping over anyone and everyone in the process."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #42 October 31, 2011 QuoteThose twelve steps are nothing more then meaningless spiritual mumbo jumbo if you're a non-believer like me. There are many atheists that would disagree with you... http://www.sossobriety.org/12steps.htm I found their slogan rather humorous: 12 secular Steps: "keeping the good, but getting the God out of AA It's rather interesting that this is the first and foremost concern for a bunch of desperate atheists who have lost all hope and driven their life right off the cliff... I've known quite a few atheists that were able to take advantage of AA without being soooo butt hurt about God... While others, tho they really couldn't admit it...still stayed true to their heart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMWgE1GFp0MYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #43 October 31, 2011 >That it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. Those twelve steps are nothing >more then meaningless spiritual mumbo jumbo . . . Well, so is almost anything. The "check of threes." What's magic about three? Nothing. But people keep spouting that bullshit. "Arch reach feel pull." Why four steps? Why do people continue to use that bullshit, when it skips things like clearing your airspace? Because it works for most people. "Pick a point on the horizon." Why? Who cares what's on the horizon? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #44 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhen one is banging their head against a wall in an addictive feedback loop, one of the tools that has been known to work is to bear in mind that there is precious little over which one has actual control. Strange that people give themselves up to some make believe power, which somehow empowers them to kick an addiction, proving they had the ability to do so all along. I guess if it works, cool; but shows how unaware those people are of the power of the self; even after they've put it to work. Like Dumbo's feather. (Remember the big eared adolescent elephant?) As long as he held that feather he was able to fly. It's a talisman, real or in the mind, that makes us believe we are able to do some thing. As long as we believe it, it is true. Eventually most come to realize thet the power was within themselves all along. Some give up the talisman and others keep the practice for the reinforcement value. Either way, whatever works for the individual is what the indivifual should do. "If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid."Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #45 October 31, 2011 QuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . OK, while I wouldn't call the 12 steps "bullshit," the rest of this statement is not true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #46 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . OK, while I wouldn't call the 12 steps "bullshit," the rest of this statement is not true. I'll second that...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #47 October 31, 2011 QuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . It has a success rate approximately the same as not doing it. I'd call that a bullshit solution.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #48 October 31, 2011 So is this something that only alcoholics have to do, or do all christians have to do this as well? Surrender to a higher power and and accept that they have no control over the thins they do in life. So what if I surrender to a higher power then continue drinking, is that my choice, or gods? If I stop drinking without the assitance of god, does that make me a higher power than god?Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #49 October 31, 2011 QuoteSo is this something that only alcoholics have to do No Quotedo all christians have to do this as well? No, AA is for those seeking recovery from alcoholism. Christianity is for those seeking God. If you are seeking God then I would reccommend Scripture and regular fellowship and study with other believers....Not AA or SC. QuoteSurrender to a higher power and and accept that they have no control over the thins they do in life. Where does it say that?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #50 October 31, 2011 Quote QuoteSurrender to a higher power and and accept that they have no control over the thins they do in life. Where does it say that? The part where i am told I can't control my drinking and the only way to stop is to surrender to a higher power. So if Im being told that I can't control one part of my life, why does it seem reasonable to assume I can control all other parts of my life?Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
