billvon 3,006 #26 November 21, 2011 >Yeah work kid work....work doign what you love and one day...one day you may get a job! That's what I did. Worked for free for years on everything from stage lighting to flight simulators to some of the early NuBUS specifications. Partly as a result of that - I got a pretty good job, because I had some practical skills with a soldering iron and a keyboard to go along with all the theory I learned in college and afterwards. >DZ's are not main line companies! So? Neither are theater companies or university aviation laboratories or Apple Computer. (Well, at least it wasn't when I was involved with it.) >I think the appropriate word we are looking for here boys is "Self induced bondage" Oh, I think there are whole websites for that! But getting back to the topic - >And before you say a word you know full well that's where this nation of ours is going. >Soon we will be a nation of self employed contractors good today gone today..no >benefits no nothing. Good! Make a few million and you can pay for your own bennies. Or fail miserably because you can't do anything productive - and make nothing. Sort of how it SHOULD work in my opinion. Too many people think they deserve a high paying job with good benefits just because they go through the motions of going to class for four years. It would be good to get back to a world where you actually have to do work and take risks to get ahead. Have to take a lousy or zero paying job to get some experience? Cool - you win over the guy who graduates after doing almost nothing for four years. Don't like that? Practice your burger flipping skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #27 November 21, 2011 Quote Quote That's one end of the spectrum. You could also work as an intern in the hopes of getting hired on to a permant and much better paying position. What would you do for a position that would pay upper 6 figures? Some people would work for free for a one year to beat out everyone else and get that position. It's all risk versus reward. With what odds? 1/10 1/100 1/10000? They don't have to hire anyone! It's one thing to trade debt, it's another to trade in lives. Funny...both are tax free. In a communication rich environment like ours, word soon gets around if a corp. is exploitative. Then the supply of intern candidates will dry up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #28 November 21, 2011 >With what odds? 1/10 1/100 1/10000? Probably 1/100. Considerably better than mailing your resume to a random company. >They don't have to hire anyone! A company that tried to run with unpaid interns would rapidly fold. I know. I've used PAID interns and they're almost useless (although they do learn a lot.) I can just imagine what the free ones are like. I'm glad someone's willing to give them a shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #29 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote You can't buy something for $6 million and then claim it's worth $10 million and then take a $4million write-off. I don't freaking know how that one works out either...but that's what one of the guys who co-owns the company said while we were enjoying his box seats at the stadium. If it sounds bogus and you can't understand how it could possibly be true...perhaps it's NOT TRUE? Given your history of misunderstandings, that's where my money goes. Agreed, Shah either misunderstood what the guy said and isn't relaying it properly, or his friend is seriously cooking his books. You can't write off things, nor can you get taxed on things, that aren't "real." So while you can potentially play around with costs and put together a "legal enough" story when you go to sell something, there's no way you can buy something and write off a loss while you're still in possession of it. It doesn't matter what "it" is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #30 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote You can't buy something for $6 million and then claim it's worth $10 million and then take a $4million write-off. I don't freaking know how that one works out either...but that's what one of the guys who co-owns the company said while we were enjoying his box seats at the stadium. If it sounds bogus and you can't understand how it could possibly be true...perhaps it's NOT TRUE? Given your history of misunderstandings, that's where my money goes. *I did like how your earlier rant thread today managed to work in dating frustrations again. another Shah story about a friend who does.... blah blah blah. either he or his friends just make this stuff up. i hope no one actually thinks what he posted makes any financial sense or is even remotely true. it isnt. and no, its not becaue i dont understand finance. it makes no sense to me because i DO understand finance. this is just like his friend at the World Bank who told him bank managers get a bonus for doing lay offs. total fantasy i will repeat as i always do when he speaks of finance. you cannot come here with made up stories and expect no one to call you on it. there are people here who understand the financial industry. including notes."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #31 November 22, 2011 Quote Agreed, Shah either misunderstood what the guy said and isn't relaying it properly, or his friend is seriously cooking his books. Had to be, no way can the guy picking up the note declare he is loosing $4mill. Unless he writes off the depreciation of the property being $4mill the first year. I'm not sure, but the box seats in the stadium was nice and the food did not suck! But it's a nice way to transfer / sell property with out all of that tax crap the rest of us have to deal with! As Borrat would say "Verrrrry nice, Verrrrry nice!" As for a manager getting a bump in pay if you lay people off? Simple, reduce the work force by 10% keep the same level of output production collect bonus for saving the company money. What's so hard about that? It's called cutting the fat off the system. Problem is when you have cut away all the fat and are not cutting bone. I know I get a bump every time I find a way to save money for my office.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,323 #32 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote Agreed, Shah either misunderstood what the guy said and isn't relaying it properly, or his friend is seriously cooking his books. Had to be, no way can the guy picking up the note declare he is loosing $4mill. Unless he writes off the depreciation of the property being $4mill the first year. I'm not sure, but the box seats in the stadium was nice and the food did not suck! But it's a nice way to transfer / sell property with out all of that tax crap the rest of us have to deal with! As Borrat would say "Verrrrry nice, Verrrrry nice!" As for a manager getting a bump in pay if you lay people off? Simple, reduce the work force by 10% keep the same level of output production collect bonus for saving the company money. What's so hard about that? It's called cutting the fat off the system. Problem is when you have cut away all the fat and are not cutting bone. I know I get a bump every time I find a way to save money for my office. How big a bump do you get if you let yourself go? The name of the movie was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pursuit_of_HappynessNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #33 November 22, 2011 Quote How big a bump do you get if you let yourself go? The name of the movie was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pursuit_of_Happyness Well that's for the above guys to cut. And yeah so you work for free.....and maybe just maybe you too can have a good life! I'm sorry but if you are DUMB enough to fall for it....you should be a slave.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #34 November 22, 2011 Quote I'm sorry but if you are DUMB enough to fall for it....you should be a slave. HOW much is changing over from engineering to business costing you in schooling, and HOW much are you looking to get hired for, again?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #35 November 22, 2011 >As for a manager getting a bump in pay if you lay people off? Simple, reduce the work force by 10% keep the same level of output production collect bonus for saving the company money. >What's so hard about that? It's called cutting the fat off the system. Problem is when you have cut away all the fat and are not cutting bone. i understand how it could work as a hypothetical. my point is that you claimed it not to be hypothetical but a fact of how bulge bracket Wall Street firms work, based on a friends story. like this post about a friend, your just plain wrong. They get a bonus based on production and how many people they manage. the bigger the group the bigger the title and bonus. no one tries to make their group smaller. that would only make them look smaller. you and your friend are wrong or just making up stuff. again..."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #36 November 22, 2011 weekender As an investor in a company what's the one thing you want? Higher dividends right? Higher dividends are a function of two things. 1) Increased demand for a product which 2) Increases profits. Now we all know demand is not moving up. So how does one increase profits? Simple reduce costs right? And what costs can we cut? Fixed costs or variable costs? Now in the past cost associated with labor was a fixed costs. But today it can be argued that cost of labor is a variable costs. Thus, if you can cut your work force by 20% and maintain the same level of production you increase your margin thus allows higher dividends on stocks. To reward such thinking you then give the manager who had the idea to lay off 20% of the workforce a nice thank you note in the way of a bonus. Now you are down to 80% of your workforce...how can you further improve profits? How about you either hold raises for the workers or reduce their pay? Again same level of output from the worker, same level of demand but now all of the products are being produced at a lower cost to the company thus again pushing up profits and increasing dividends. Also in the mix sell off some non performing notes and life just keeps getting better for those who own majority stock in the company. Those who lost their jobs will never get paid what they were once paid, even if they get hired at the same place since the overall compensation package has been cut. Or you could always work for free and hope one day they will hire you? Maybe at your old pay? Welcome to the new normal, those with the liquid assets will do very well, those with the means of production will leverage to increase their liquidity and the middle class.......it will be pounded into a liquid.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #37 November 22, 2011 >As for a manager getting a bump in pay if you lay people off? Simple, reduce the work >force by 10% keep the same level of output production collect bonus for saving the >company money. If you can reduce the work force by 10% and keep the same level of production - then you have managed to fire some completely useless people, and you deserve a bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #38 November 22, 2011 Quote >As for a manager getting a bump in pay if you lay people off? Simple, reduce the work >force by 10% keep the same level of output production collect bonus for saving the >company money. If you can reduce the work force by 10% and keep the same level of production - then you have managed to fire some completely useless people, and you deserve a bonus. GE did that for a while, not sure if they still do. But sure the first 10% is easy! How about the second 10% and the third 10%? Remember once the ball is rolling and prifits start going up.....who has the balls to say "Well you see the first 10% was easy."Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #39 November 22, 2011 Not really sure what your argument is here. Are you trying to say a company should have 10% more employees then they really need? It's always good for a company to have just enough employees to have the maximum amount of production possible. It's called being efficient. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #40 November 22, 2011 Really.... Argument, "Wow this is a nice way not to pay taxes on a purchase." "Wow how is DUMB enough to work for free!" "Managers and company owners are under ever increasing pressure to increase profits in the face of diminishing demands so as to meet Wall Street's expectations so as to prevent their stocks from tanking."Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #41 November 22, 2011 Quote weekender As an investor in a company what's the one thing you want? Higher dividends right? Higher dividends are a function of two things. 1) Increased demand for a product which 2) Increases profits. Now we all know demand is not moving up. So how does one increase profits? Simple reduce costs right? And what costs can we cut? Fixed costs or variable costs? Now in the past cost associated with labor was a fixed costs. But today it can be argued that cost of labor is a variable costs. Thus, if you can cut your work force by 20% and maintain the same level of production you increase your margin thus allows higher dividends on stocks. To reward such thinking you then give the manager who had the idea to lay off 20% of the workforce a nice thank you note in the way of a bonus. Now you are down to 80% of your workforce...how can you further improve profits? How about you either hold raises for the workers or reduce their pay? Again same level of output from the worker, same level of demand but now all of the products are being produced at a lower cost to the company thus again pushing up profits and increasing dividends. Also in the mix sell off some non performing notes and life just keeps getting better for those who own majority stock in the company. Those who lost their jobs will never get paid what they were once paid, even if they get hired at the same place since the overall compensation package has been cut. Or you could always work for free and hope one day they will hire you? Maybe at your old pay? Welcome to the new normal, those with the liquid assets will do very well, those with the means of production will leverage to increase their liquidity and the middle class.......it will be pounded into a liquid. i explained to you very clearly i understand the hypothetical. your entire post did not address my point. you stated something as fact based on first hand knowledge. in this case your friend from the world bank. i said you are wrong and explained why based on actual industry knowledge. you then make a long off topic post again about a hypothetical i did NOT dispute. you state your opinions and your friends opinions as fact. i have no problem with your hypotheticals but do take issue with your suppossed facts and inside info from your "friends". that is my point."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #42 November 22, 2011 You're reading comprehension is not very good. You still failed to answer my question regarding letting go 10% of the employees in your argument. Your smart ass comment is unnecessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #43 November 22, 2011 >But sure the first 10% is easy! How about the second 10% and the third 10%? Very hard to do. But again, if you CAN lay off 10% of your workforce and see no difference in output - you should, because you're laying off useless people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #44 November 22, 2011 Quote >Yeah work kid work....work doign what you love and one day...one day you may get a job! That's what I did. Worked for free for years on everything from stage lighting to flight simulators to some of the early NuBUS specifications. What did you eat and how did you pay your rent for all those years while you were working for free?dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #45 November 22, 2011 Quote "Managers and company owners are under ever increasing pressure to increase profits in the face of diminishing demands so as to meet Wall Street's expectations so as to prevent their stocks from tanking." BTW this has always been true for publicly owned companies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #46 November 22, 2011 Quote Quote >Yeah work kid work....work doign what you love and one day...one day you may get a job! That's what I did. Worked for free for years on everything from stage lighting to flight simulators to some of the early NuBUS specifications. What did you eat and how did you pay your rent for all those years while you were working for free? (edit... sorry i realized after posting you were asking him a very specific question. i read it quickly. im leaving my post though because it might answer another question) i cannot speak for other industries. Interns at banks are almost always students. very few are recent grads but many here have posted that that number is getting bigger. it could but its still fewer than students. like most students your parents pay for your expenses. at top banks the interns tend to come from top schools and their parents tend to be pretty well off."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #47 November 22, 2011 and, many schools require internships or co-ops in order the graduate I wonder how much the schools get in kickbacks to provide the free labor. (I think the kids do get a practical experience benefit from it, but I just don't trust the educational institutions to exploit it anyway) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #48 November 22, 2011 >What did you eat and how did you pay your rent for all those years while you >were working for free? With the jobs that I _wasn't_ working for free. Food service, park maintenance, lifeguard. (Plus I was going to school at the time, so part of my room and board was coming from scholarships.) In the middle of school the food service job kept me eating pretty well. Towards the end of that time my diet consisted of Ramen noodles, honey roasted peanuts and orange juice. This was because I was running the laundry room for our dorm, and my pay came out of the change that I got from the washing machines. And there was a vending machine that had ramen, peanuts etc that would take nickels. It worked out pretty well, and kept me going until I had my first "real" jobs after college. Although the bursar's office was not happy when I made my last few tuition payments in loose change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #49 November 22, 2011 Look you can argue with me or just look at the facts on the ground. What is unemployment? OK now look at demand? And now look at worker productivity. We are at the moment a very productive society! The level of our ability to do work is amazing! You have people working not only at work but also at home with respect to white collar jobs. Blue collar jobs thanks to TQM Six Sigma and ever increased automation.... Yes the first 10% is great! That's fat, but the second and third waves...you start cutting deeper and due to the economic conditions you can either rehire those people back as contractors or just have the other people pick up the slack. And no you don't need a huge organization to demonstrate power. It's all about meeting Wall street projections and keeping the company profitable and spitting out dividends. But most importantly not paying any taxes.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #50 November 22, 2011 And the biggest reason is the consumers want cheaper products. BTW, companies don't pay taxes the consumers pay it. Because companies pass that cost on to the consumer. So if you raise taxes on companies they just raise the price of their products. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites