So Tell Me Again About "Peaceful" Protests

[Kennedy 0]

I've done my best to try to figure out exactly what happened by listening to both sides and watching as much video as possible. Have you got a narrative that differs from mine? You never answered my question about what you see in that video.

So, in your own words, tell us what happened at UC Davis. Tell us why we should be upset. Tell us what the officers did wrong or what they could have done better. Do you have enough story to be upset, or are you guilty of jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information, your own preconceived notions, and thirty seconds of video?

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[Amazon 7]

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I've done my best to try to figure out exactly what happened by listening to both sides and watching as much video as possible. Have you got a narrative that differs from mine? You never answered my question about what you see in that video.

So, in your own words, tell us what happened at UC Davis. Tell us why we should be upset. Tell us what the officers did wrong or what they could have done better. Do you have enough story to be upset, or are you guilty of jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information, your own preconceived notions, and thirty seconds of video?

Seems the results of their actions are pretty telling... sometimes there ARE repercussions for those who abuse their authority... most of the time though... lets face it.. the"police" get away with a hell of a lot of "teaching em a lesson"

[Kennedy 0]

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I've done my best to try to figure out exactly what happened by listening to both sides and watching as much video as possible. Have you got a narrative that differs from mine? You never answered my question about what you see in that video.

So, in your own words, tell us what happened at UC Davis. Tell us why we should be upset. Tell us what the officers did wrong or what they could have done better. Do you have enough story to be upset, or are you guilty of jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information, your own preconceived notions, and thirty seconds of video?

Seems the results of their actions are pretty telling... sometimes there ARE repercussions for those who abuse their authority... most of the time though... lets face it.. the"police" get away with a hell of a lot of "teaching em a lesson"

Those results are the response to a misrepresentation. Those results are in response to officers coming on to campus and pepper spraying peaceful protesters. Reality (and video) shows us that is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." How many people would be so upset if they knew that the protesters surrounded officers who were trying to leave with an arrestee, and that the officers did everything including talking to protesters first?

What abuse of authority was there here? You haven't answered me.

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So, in your own words, tell us what happened at UC Davis. Tell us why we should be upset. Tell us what the officers did wrong or what they could have done better. Do you have enough story to be upset, or are you guilty of jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information, your own preconceived notions, and thirty seconds of video?

Do you have a different narrative for what happened? Or do you agree with mine and merely disagree with how the officers handled being corraled and kept from leaving?

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[billvon 3,072]

>So does anyone still think this was a peaceful protest where some jackbooted
>thugs just rolled up for a day of OC spray and giggles?

I think it was a bunch of violent idiots vs. a bunch of violent idiots. A recipe for problems, in my experience.

[Kennedy 0]

Bill, do you think my narrative concerning that day is correct?
(that officers made an arrest, the protesters didn't like it, the protesters surrounded the officers, the protesters sat down a linked arms, the officers talked to the protesters, informed them that they were breaking the law, warned the protesters about use of force, and used force to exit)

If so, why are you calling the officers violent idiots.
If not, what do you think I've got wrong in that timeline?

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[popsjumper 2]

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I think I have the problem solved.
No more pepper spray.
No more mace.
No clubs, batons, whatevers.
Not even dogs are needed!
Just a few small cuddly friendly critters.

I think you are on to something. I know it would make me move and probably vote for Bush to boot, Jack (no pun intended....well, yes it was.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Kennedy 0]

Wel, Bill and Jeanne haven't answered, maybe you will spend five minutes, watch the video, and address my question.

Watch the two videos linked in this post earlier in this thread.

So, do you think my narrative concerning that day is correct?
(that officers made an arrest, the protesters didn't like it, the protesters surrounded the officers, the protesters sat down a linked arms to prevent officers leaving, the officers talked to the protesters, informed them that they were breaking the law, warned the protesters that officers were about use of force, and used force to exit)

Have you got a different storyline? Have you seen anything to dispute this or support another narrative?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[airdvr 210]

They only see what they want to see. You're wasting bandwidth.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rhaig 0]

that's twice this week I've seen the "wasting bandwidth comment". It used to almost make sense when that was the response to someone bottom-quoting an entire email with one line of response on usenet. But that was back when a full newsfeed would still fit on a T1. Now... well, the bandwidth isn't an issue. wasting his time yes...

--
Rob

[Marinus 0]

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What would you have the officers do?

I can remember another topic in which we went over that. When it became clear that other police forces resolve such situations without the use of pepper spray or other violence, for some reason you left that topic. But in short it's a bit like this:

1) Have some officers breach the line of protesters dragging/carrying a couple of students off.

2)Use the opening in the line to pass the human barrier.

3) Rejoice over the fact you handled the situation without looking like barbaric idiots to the rest of the world.

It would look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMmXv2IC8EE

[mnealtx 0]

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1) Have some officers breach the line of protesters dragging/carrying a couple of students off.

And when the protesters don't let go (like at UC Davis), then what?

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It would look like this:

Where the Polizei used pepper spray on the protesters, you mean?

Link - pic 19.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Marinus 0]

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And when the protesters don't let go (like at UC Davis), then what?

If your cops aren't able to drag of a couple of kids that link arms, they really should hit the gym.

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Where the Polizei used pepper spray on the protesters, you mean?

Link - pic 19.

I'll quote the description of that pic:

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A police officer uses pepper spray during clashes with demonstrators near railway tracks used by a train transporting nuclear waste in Pommoissel, Germany, on November 26, 2011. (AP Photo/Axel Heimken)

I won't waste time to point out the very obvious differences between the situation depicted on pic 19 and the UC Davis situation. I refuse to believe you're too dense to see the difference yourself.

[mnealtx 0]

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And when the protesters don't let go (like at UC Davis), then what?

If your cops aren't able to drag of a couple of kids that link arms, they really should hit the gym.

So they should be like the Polizei, and use joint/nerve blocks that can cause permanent damage instead of that *sob* horribly brutal pepper spray?

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Where the Polizei used pepper spray on the protesters, you mean?

Link - pic 19.

I'll quote the description of that pic:

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A police officer uses pepper spray during clashes with demonstrators near railway tracks used by a train transporting nuclear waste in Pommoissel, Germany, on November 26, 2011. (AP Photo/Axel Heimken)

I won't waste time to point out the very obvious differences between the situation depicted on pic 19 and the UC Davis situation. I refuse to believe you're too dense to see the difference yourself.

I refuse to believe you're too dense to see the similarity yourself...but I could be wrong.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Marinus 0]

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So they should be like the Polizei, and use joint/nerve blocks that can cause permanent damage instead of that *sob* horribly brutal pepper spray?

It's perfectly possible to carry someone off without using that much violence. In that vid the protesters don't look like their joints and nerves are damaged.

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I refuse to believe you're too dense to see the similarity yourself...but I could be wrong.

Similarities? Well, the police uses pepper spray on a protester, and there the similarities end.

[mnealtx 0]

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So they should be like the Polizei, and use joint/nerve blocks that can cause permanent damage instead of that *sob* horribly brutal pepper spray?

It's perfectly possible to carry someone off without using that much violence.

Is that your professional opinion due to your police training, Officer Marinus? Or are you channeling wikipedia again?

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In that vid the protesters don't look like their joints and nerves are damaged.

I can't access the vid, but I'll bet dollars to donut holes that it *didn't* show the protester being separated from his mates.

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I refuse to believe you're too dense to see the similarity yourself...but I could be wrong.

Similarities? Well, the police uses pepper spray on a protester, and there the similarities end.

Unproven.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Marinus 0]

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Is that your professional opinion due to your police training, Officer Marinus? Or are you channeling wikipedia again?

I think you are mistaking me with Kennedy. That's the one who claims to be an expert on international Police forces. I don't think that you have to be an expert in anything (or to consult wikipedia for that matter) to know it's possible to carry someone off in a non violent way.

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I can't access the vid

If you get the chance to access it, we'll discuss it.

[mnealtx 0]

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Is that your professional opinion due to your police training, Officer Marinus? Or are you channeling wikipedia again?

I think you are mistaking me with Kennedy. That's the one who claims to be an expert on international Police forces.

Yet you're the one claiming to know better than him how to separate out protesters.

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I don't think that you have to be an expert in anything (or to consult wikipedia for that matter) to know it's possible to carry someone off in a non violent way.

Unproven.

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I can't access the vid

If you get the chance to access it, we'll discuss it.

Streaming media isn't allowed on the network, so it's not going to happen, period. If the vid doesn't show the protester being separated from his mates, just say so and we'll go from there.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Marinus 0]

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Yet you're the one claiming to know better than him how to separate out protesters.

I said that Kennedy claimed he is an expert. He has yet to provide us with the first shred of evidence for that claim. I believe he has some knowledge about police work, but I suspect he's seriously over-estimating his knowledge, especially his knowledge about international Police.

And yes you can separate non-violent protesters without busting there joints and nerves. Since you made the claim that the alternative to pepper spray results in severe injury, you should be the one providing proof for that. I think it's kinda obvious you can manipulate someone's arm without wounding that person. Also, pepper spray doesn't cause arms to go unlinked, so you still have to do that, isn't it?

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Unproven.

You're seriously suggesting that you doubt you can carry someone off without causing injury?

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Streaming media isn't allowed on the network, so it's not going to happen, period.

I find it very hard to believe that's the only internet access you have. But it shows protesters being carried of in a non-violent fashion.'It doesn't show the unlinking of arms.

But I'm sort of done with you here, you dodge arguments and twists words, etc. That's your good right, but I have the right to no longer waste words on it.

[Squeak 17]

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I find it very hard to believe that's the only internet access you have. But it shows protesters being carried of in a non-violent fashion.'It doesn't show the unlinking of arms.
.

He's in a controlled country supporting your freedom, with limited access to a lot more than just streaming media

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Marinus 0]

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He's in a controlled country supporting your freedom, with limited access to a lot more than just streaming media

Ah, I see, well I assumed he was from Texas. Oh and the "supporting my freedom" stuff doesn't really work on me. I don't see how stabilizing former Yugoslavia affects my freedom the least bit.

[rushmc 23]

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He's in a controlled country supporting your freedom, with limited access to a lot more than just streaming media

Ah, I see, well I assumed he was from Texas. Oh and the "supporting my freedom" stuff doesn't really work on me. I don't see how stabilizing former Yugoslavia affects my freedom the least bit.

then why do you care so much about what goes on here in the US?

You cant have it both ways here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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Yet you're the one claiming to know better than him how to separate out protesters.

I said that Kennedy claimed he is an expert. He has yet to provide us with the first shred of evidence for that claim. I believe he has some knowledge about police work, but I suspect he's seriously over-estimating his knowledge, especially his knowledge about international Police.

You know this from *what* expertise of your own?

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And yes you can separate non-violent protesters without busting there joints and nerves.

Yet again, you know this from *what* expertise of your own?

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Since you made the claim that the alternative to pepper spray results in severe injury, you should be the one providing proof for that.

Incorrect - I said that joint/nerve locks *CAN* cause injury, not that they will cause injury in all cases.

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I think it's kinda obvious you can manipulate someone's arm without wounding that person.

That is correct - nobody claimed otherwise except you.

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Also, pepper spray doesn't cause arms to go unlinked, so you still have to do that, isn't it?

I dunno - the bit of the UC Davis clip I saw on the news, they let go of each other pretty quick.

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Unproven.

You're seriously suggesting that you doubt you can carry someone off without causing injury?

I didn't make that claim. I said that joint/nerve locks *CAN* cause injury.

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Streaming media isn't allowed on the network, so it's not going to happen, period.

I find it very hard to believe that's the only internet access you have.

I really don't care whether you believe it or not - it *is* the fact of the situation, however.

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But it shows protesters being carried of in a non-violent fashion.'It doesn't show the unlinking of arms.

Ok, so you have NO clue if force such as joint/nerve locks were utilized against the protesters before they were carried away.

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But I'm sort of done with you here, you dodge arguments and twists words, etc.

I refer you back to your "results in injury" strawman.

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That's your good right, but I have the right to no longer waste words on it.

I would say you'd be missed, but since your arguments were nothing BUT dodges and twisting words, it would be a lie.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Marinus 0]

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You cant have it both ways here

Yes I can, and I'm doing it right now.

[Kennedy 0]

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I can remember another topic in which we went over that. When it became clear that other police forces resolve such situations without the use of pepper spray or other violence, for some reason you left that topic.

I left the topic because you were annoying me. I tried to share information with you, You didn't want to hear it. Don't expect me to share private details of my training or employment on this board. We've all seen how what works out when whiny little bastards decide to turn backstabber.

If you cannot understand that there are several ways to deal with blackade type demonstrations and protests, that's not my problem. You also should be able to understand that there is a difference between a single officer's approach and mobile field force tactics involving what you call "riot police".

None of that changes the fact that pepper spray is used in many places around the world as an acceptable option before using "hard hands" methods.

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But in short it's a bit like this:

1) Have some officers breach the line of protesters dragging/carrying a couple of students off.

2)Use the opening in the line to pass the human barrier.

3) Rejoice over the fact you handled the situation without looking like barbaric idiots to the rest of the world.

Do you understand that there is a difference between carrying off a passive protester and trying to break up protesters who have linked arms and refuse to let go?

Do you understand that there is a difference between things like blocking streets buildings railroads etc and surrounding a group of officers and refusing to let them leave? Do you think the Polizei would have used the same tactics if their officers had been surrounded while making an arrest and protesters surrounded them?

Despite the hysterics of a few liars, this incident at UC Davis was not jackbooted thugs rolling into the park just to spray some random protesters in a line. This incident was officers clearing out a park (no pepper spray used). The officers made an arrest (no pepper spray used). The protesters then surrounded the officers and refused to let them leave (no pepper spray used). The protesters linked arms and sat down, preventing officers from leaving with the arrestee (no pepper spray used). The officers attempted to speak with the protesters (no pepper spray used). The officers explained that if protesters continued to block officers from leaving, force would be used (no pepper spray used). The officers then used pepper spray to attempt to gain compliance.

Were the officers perfect that day? No. Were there others things they could have done? Yes. Were they required to do anything different by law, policy, or common sense? No.

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But I'm sort of done with you here, you dodge arguments and twists words, etc. That's your good right, but I have the right to no longer waste words on it.

And that's how most of us feel about you.

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[matthewcline 0]

Those two videos seem to support his narrative pretty well.

The police gave the protesters options, they CHOSE the pepper spray option, that is even shown in a third video, I linked in this thread (I think it is this thread, they are all getting a bit jumbled up).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!