Belgian_Draft 0 #26 December 24, 2011 Quoteso you're all for the individual against the power of the state - until you're not. strange contradiction... Sometimes, when driving a car, you need to go to full throttle. Sometimes you need to use the brakes.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #27 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteso you're all for the individual against the power of the state - until you're not. strange contradiction... Sometimes, when driving a car, you need to go to full throttle. Sometimes you need to use the brakes. in this case the state needs to use the brakes then as manning was acting for the greater good...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #28 December 24, 2011 QuoteManning did real damage - there's really no doubt about that. Actually the whole point of the thread was that he did NO damage. And here we go again - he's a traitor, he let out secrets, he's a treasonist, people got harmed, whatever. So far NO ONE, not anyone, has put forth once ounce of harm done by Bradley Manning So I would dispute that, NO HARM has been done whatsoever. In fact, the only people that think harm has been done are the ones we pay to keep all those 'secrets. Think of the government waste in real dollars. We pay entire agencies, probably tens of thousands of employees in the government to keep secrets that do not need to be kept (apparently). Everyone talks about government waste, but everyone seemingly supports our slide into a secret police state in favor of 'security'. If we sacked all those 'secret keepers', I expect the sun would still rise tomorrow morning. Exposing murder by the military? Exposing torture endorsed by our leaders? He should get a Congressional Medal of Honor, not 19 months in detention without a hearing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #29 December 24, 2011 This isn't about damage TK! If you don't agree with the military and what they do, then don't join, don't swear allegiance that has a protect the country at all costs, and damn sure don't release secrets! He deserves death given what the UCMJ calls for, they're being quite humane to give him life. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. I could care less WHAT he released. He did NOT have the authority to make that decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #30 December 24, 2011 Amen! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #31 December 24, 2011 >So far NO ONE, not anyone, has put forth once ounce of harm done by Bradley Manning But again, that's the drunk driving argument. If you get pulled over for drunk driving, "but I haven't killed anyone yet" is not a valid argument that will get you released. You can't drive drunk because of the risks you pose to others, not because every drunk driver kills someone. Releasing confidential information poses a risk to the US. Whether or not any actual harm done does not change the risk it poses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #32 December 24, 2011 QuoteI could care less WHAT he released. orders are orders...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #33 December 24, 2011 Quote>So far NO ONE, not anyone, has put forth once ounce of harm done by Bradley Manning But again, that's the drunk driving argument. If you get pulled over for drunk driving, "but I haven't killed anyone yet" is not a valid argument that will get you released. You can't drive drunk because of the risks you pose to others, not because every drunk driver kills someone. Releasing confidential information poses a risk to the US. Whether or not any actual harm done does not change the risk it poses. except drunk drivers do real harm and there was none here...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #34 December 24, 2011 >except drunk drivers do real harm If a drunk driver is pulled over and has not yet harmed anyone - who has he harmed? Should he be released since he did not harm anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #35 December 24, 2011 Quote>except drunk drivers do real harm If a drunk driver is pulled over and has not yet harmed anyone - who has he harmed? Should he be released since he did not harm anyone? and if the drunk driver is a medic called out to a desperate emergency a few miles down the road - so that hundreds could die if he doesn't get there. what then - a police escort?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #36 December 24, 2011 QuoteIf you don't agree with the military and what they do, then don't join, don't swear allegiance that has a protect the country at all costs, and damn sure don't release secrets! He deserves death given what the UCMJ calls for, they're being quite humane to give him life. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. I could care less WHAT he released. He did NOT have the authority to make that decision. so we let the military run rampant, even if it is wrong and even if the soldiers know that it is wrong. We take and only 'take' orders. No one questions anything, ever. Why people don't understand why this is a problem is beyond me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #37 December 24, 2011 Quote>So far NO ONE, not anyone, has put forth once ounce of harm done by Bradley Manning But again, that's the drunk driving argument. If you get pulled over for drunk driving, "but I haven't killed anyone yet" is not a valid argument that will get you released. You can't drive drunk because of the risks you pose to others, not because every drunk driver kills someone. Releasing confidential information poses a risk to the US. Whether or not any actual harm done does not change the risk it poses. If let-go, this would only lead to 'more of the same' activity. Same with a thief or any other bad guy. In this case, who's to say Manning would not leak more serious material without authorization. In this case, Military law takes precedence. Like it or not, the matter has been dealt with. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #38 December 24, 2011 >and if the drunk driver is a medic called out to a desperate emergency a few miles >down the road - so that hundreds could die if he doesn't get there. what then - a police >escort? You answer my question and I'll answer yours. If a drunk driver is pulled over and has not yet harmed anyone - who has he harmed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #39 December 24, 2011 no-onestay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #40 December 24, 2011 >no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #41 December 24, 2011 Quote>no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) i support acting responsibly - sometimes (as with my example) there is the greater good to consider...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #42 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuote>no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) i support acting responsibly - sometimes (as with my example) there is the greater good to consider... Like your drunk paramedic that's going to save thousands of lives at the accident scene?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #43 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote>no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) i support acting responsibly - sometimes (as with my example) there is the greater good to consider... Like your drunk paramedic that's going to save thousands of lives at the accident scene? That's a scarey thought! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #44 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) i support acting responsibly - sometimes (as with my example) there is the greater good to consider... Like your drunk paramedic that's going to save thousands of lives at the accident scene? That's a scarey thought! Chuck I misquoted... hundreds, not thousands. Point still stands, however.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #45 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>no-one Ah, so you support drunk driving then? (as long as no one gets hurt of course) i support acting responsibly - sometimes (as with my example) there is the greater good to consider... Like your drunk paramedic that's going to save thousands of lives at the accident scene? That's a scarey thought! Chuck I misquoted... hundreds, not thousands. Point still stands, however. In this case, one is as good as a thousand. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #46 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you don't agree with the military and what they do, then don't join, don't swear allegiance that has a protect the country at all costs, and damn sure don't release secrets! He deserves death given what the UCMJ calls for, they're being quite humane to give him life. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. I could care less WHAT he released. He did NOT have the authority to make that decision. so we let the military run rampant, even if it is wrong and even if the soldiers know that it is wrong. We take and only 'take' orders. No one questions anything, ever. Why people don't understand why this is a problem is beyond me. No. We won't let the military run rampant. But Manning isn't the person with the right to "correct" any wrongdoing. It's not his job. He isn't part of any military inquiry or court. The military isn't about "take and take orders only". There's also Give orders. There's also a right way of questioning orders and knowing how to address unlawful orders if came to that. I seriously doubt mannings reasons for leaking as "whistleblowing" are legitimate. People like him just have an issue with authority._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #47 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you don't agree with the military and what they do, then don't join, don't swear allegiance that has a protect the country at all costs, and damn sure don't release secrets! He deserves death given what the UCMJ calls for, they're being quite humane to give him life. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. I could care less WHAT he released. He did NOT have the authority to make that decision. so we let the military run rampant, even if it is wrong and even if the soldiers know that it is wrong. We take and only 'take' orders. No one questions anything, ever. Why people don't understand why this is a problem is beyond me. No. We won't let the military run rampant. But Manning isn't the person with the right to "correct" any wrongdoing. It's not his job. He isn't part of any military inquiry or court. The military isn't about "take and take orders only". There's also Give orders. There's also a right way of questioning orders and knowing how to address unlawful orders if came to that. I seriously doubt mannings reasons for leaking as "whistleblowing" are legitimate. People like him just have an issue with authority. he was the person who could do something about the abuses - which he did. after manning inevitably they'll go after assange...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #48 December 24, 2011 Quotehe was the person who could do something about the abuses - which he did. after manning inevitably they'll go after assange... So, Manning stealing the docs magically made the 'abuses' stop? Got something to prove that, or is this more of your usual fabrications?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #49 December 24, 2011 Quotehe was the person who could do something about the abuses - which he did. Nope. He sent out other stuff not relating to specific abuses also. If he really wanted to champion something. . . getting himself arrested, destroying his credibility, costing the taxpayers millions, and destroying the careers of servicemembers not involved with the "crimes" he was "exposing". . .definitely not the right way of going about doing things. He was only "championing" his own spoiled selfish bad attitude._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #50 December 24, 2011 QuoteQuotehe was the person who could do something about the abuses - which he did. Nope. He sent out other stuff not relating to specific abuses also. If he really wanted to champion something. . . getting himself arrested, destroying his credibility, costing the taxpayers millions, and destroying the careers of servicemembers not involved with the "crimes" he was "exposing". . .definitely not the right way of going about doing things. He was only "championing" his own spoiled selfish bad attitude. he did what he could when he could how he could. what he did not do was do nothing...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
