My first cutaway.

[Royd 0]

I visited my brother in Idaho for two weeks, so I took my new rig with me.
On Sat. evening my brother and his two sons watched the survival dvds 'Breakaway, and Groundrush" with me.
Sunday, the 23rd we all went to Skydown in Caldwell.

The first jump was around 11:30 and uneventful, except for the butt landing. Ground elevation,2500', and air temp around 100 degrees.

The second jump, which is #72 for me, was about 12:30. Air temp was 105.
I opened at 4,000 ft., did my control check, everything was good.
My brother, his sons and wife were on the ground watching through binoculars.

I did two spirals to the left- counter clockwise. I leveled out, and came back the other way.
It was a hard turn, and yes, I was hot dogging for my family. About 3/4 through the turn I saw the chute fold in the middle and spun up. At this time I was at 1,500 ft.
There were at least two twists in the risers, and several about 3 ft. up into the lines.
It took about 1 1/2 seconds to figure out that I didn't want to correct the situation, so I cut away.

My freebag circled me twice about 100 ft. away. That tells me that I was in a large vortex.
On the control check of the reserve, it got squirelly for a second. I suggest being careful and conservitive at this point.
The reserve is 160 sq.ft., so I landed faster than ever.
I left three ft. skid marks on the road and ripped the seat of my pants.
The dz is right next to the interstate, so someone saw it and called 911. The police were there immediately, asking if someone had died.
The main was recovered. It landed in a wheat feild.
I dropped the cutaway handle. The reserve handle stayed with the rig. I made no effort to find the freebag. It looked lika a lost cause.

The main is a Sabre2 190. I have not been able to stall it, and had taken one wrap on the steering lines.

At the point of the malfunction, I was flying against the direction of the vortex.

Overall, I will chalk it up to pilot error.
I'll take all critisism and critique graciously.

My brother thought I had cutaway intentionally, and was going to kick my ass.
It was the first time his wife had been to a dz.

[NWFlyer 2]

First off, good job surviving your first malfunction and living to tell us about it. Couple questions ...

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The reserve is 160 sq.ft., so I landed faster than ever.

I left three ft. skid marks on the road and ripped the seat of my pants.

Have you reconsidered your reserve choice at this point? Between the altitude, density altitude, and your wingloading (assuming what is in your profile is accurate).... that sounds like a pretty scary situation. Could have been a lot worse. Obviously, you walked away, so that's a good thing, but I like to think of my reserve as the canopy I want over my head when the shit really hits the fan; and I like the fact that it's very close in size to my main.

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The reserve handle stayed with the rig.

Did you not pull it?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[catfishhunter 2]

Wasn't there so can't say what happened but sounds like self induced Line Twist. First time (and only time) I did it I was about 1500' and scared the shit out of me too.

Glad your ok. You should have got in the car and found the free bag unless your rich those fuckers cost way to much to just leave without looking for it.

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My freebag circled me twice about 100 ft. away

Did it circle you or was it doing circles 100ft away? You say Vortex do you mean dust devil? Cuz if you was IN a dust devil under your reserve this thread would most likely be in a different forum.

By the way whats your exit weight?

Glad you didn't Die :)

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Royd 0]

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The reserve is 160 sq.ft., so I landed faster than ever.

I left three ft. skid marks on the road and ripped the seat of my pants.

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Have you reconsidered your reserve choice at this point? Between the altitude, density altitude, and your wingloading .... that sounds like a pretty scary situation. Could have been a lot worse. Obviously, you walked away, so that's a good thing, but I like to think of my reserve as the canopy I want over my head when the shit really hits the fan; and I like the fact that it's very close in size to my main.

I bought the rig used,about a month ago, so I hadn't given it any thought. Can a bigger reserve be put into the rig?


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The reserve handle stayed with the rig.

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Did you not pull it?

It was pulled. Apparently, I didn't completely remove it.

[NWFlyer 2]

Don't know if you can put a larger reserve into your container; you'd have to ask a rigger about that.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Royd 0]

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Glad your ok. You should have got in the car and found the free bag unless your rich those fuckers cost way to much to just leave without looking for it.

It maintained elevation and drifted away across some feilds.

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Did it circle you or was it doing circles 100ft away? You say Vortex do you mean dust devil? Cuz if you was IN a dust devil under your reserve this thread would most likely be in a different forum.

By the way whats your exit weight?

Glad you didn't Die :)

It circled me twice at about a 100ft radius.

I would not have been jumping if dust devils had been visible. I assume it was large. I mentioned that the reserve got squirelly during control check.

My exit weight is 190lb.

[AFFI 0]

As you found out performance maneuvers have the potential to create a malfunction resulting in a canopy that is not safe to land – Good thing you were not 5 or 600 feet lower! Haven’t been long since we lost a couple skydivers to low cutaways.

Ummmm, Good rule of thumb –
Do not perform performance maneuvers below an altitude you are not willing to cutaway from (I.E. your hard deck/decision altitude).


The size of your reserve as has already been addressed has a wing loading that is a little ambitious for your experience level. I would definitely check with a rigger to see if your container will hold a larger reserve, but then again, you might decide to stay where you are – your choice. Interested to see what others have to say about this issue.


Good lesson that luckily for you only cost a reserve repack, a handle and some alcohol (I know you did not forget your beer and a bottle for you rigger).

In a sense you kinda did cutaway intentionally in an indirect manner, cuz you caused the situation to happen, perhaps at least one good swift kick in the seat from your bro is in order?

What a rush eh?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[BIGUN 1,317]

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The size of your reserve as has already been addressed has a wing loading that is a little ambitious for your experience level. I would definitely check with a rigger to see if your container will hold a larger reserve, but then again, you might decide to stay where you are – your choice. Interested to see what others have to say about this issue.

Mykel, Agree with you on this point. It's a PDr and the weight-loading isn't as far over as others. Addtional training on the flare technique for an F-111 might help.

My only real concern about the sequence of events was the reserve ripcord handle "was pulled. Apparently, I didn't completely remove it." I'm thinking the reserve ripcord handle wasn't pulled/or properly. Your thoughts?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tbrown 26]

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Wasn't there so can't say what happened but sounds like self induced Line Twist. First time (and only time) I did it I was about 1500' and scared the shit out of me too.

Sounds scary. I'd agree that it sounds self induced too. Royd, this would be an excellent time to take the next canopy control course that's offered at or near your DZ. Canopies today, even the "tame" ones (Pilot, Spectre, Sabre2, etc.) fly much hotter than anything twenty years ago and would've been considered "expert only" canopies as recently as maybe 15 years ago. They're just too hot to be flying around in without some proper instruction and the injury and fatality reports are sad evidence to that fact. Canopy control is every bit as important as knowing how to do a proper cutaway.

Besides, canopy courses are really FUN to take and you'll learn so much about improving your landings, stall recovery (it's fun when you try it up high), and how to get back from a long spot. And you'll make new friends and have a good laugh about everybody making the same kind of mistakes.

Anyway, glad the cutaway worked out for you, if you got up and walked away ya done good. Too bad about your pants, but if that's all that died, then what thhe hell. Ain't it grand to be alive ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Royd 0]

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the reserve ripcord handle "was pulled. Apparently, I didn't completely remove it." I'm thinking the reserve ripcord handle wasn't pulled/or properly. Your thoughts?

The handle was out of the velcro and hanging down about 5 inches.
Once I was under canopy, the handles never crossed my mind.

[Royd 0]

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Sounds scary. I'd agree that it sounds self induced too. Royd, this would be an excellent time to take the next canopy control course that's offered at or near your DZ.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do that at the first opportunity.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Sounds scary. I'd agree that it sounds self induced too. Royd, this would be an excellent time to take the next canopy control course that's offered at or near your DZ.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do that at the first opportunity.

You live in Florida. You don't have to wait for someone to come to you ... go up to DeLand and take Scott Miller's course.

http://www.freedomofflight.tv/public/index.php?which=canopy

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[brianfry713 0]

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The main is a Sabre2 190. I have not been able to stall it, and had taken one wrap on the steering lines.

You might want to talk to your rigger about shortening your toggle position on the brake lines so you don't have to take a wrap to get a full flare. Since it's already at the loft getting repacked now would be a good time.

[labrys 0]

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The main is a Sabre2 190. I have not been able to stall it, and had taken one wrap on the steering lines.

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You might want to talk to your rigger about shortening your toggle position on the brake lines so you don't have to take a wrap to get a full flare.

I might be misunderstanding here... but the post was about taking a wrap to get a complete stall, not flaring. I wouldn't want to adjust my canopy to stall at full toggle extension under normal landing conditions.. I'd rather it was just starting to stall as I land.

Owned by Remi #?

[AFFI 0]

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The main is a Sabre2 190. I have not been able to stall it, and had taken one wrap on the steering lines.

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You might want to talk to your rigger about shortening your toggle position on the brake lines so you don't have to take a wrap to get a full flare.

I might be misunderstanding here... but the post was about taking a wrap to get a complete stall, not flaring. I wouldn't want to adjust my canopy to stall at full toggle extension under normal landing conditions.. I'd rather it was just starting to stall as I land.

My toggles are properly adjusted and I can easily stall my canopy without taking a wrap - canopy type and WL play into factor I am sure - but a 1:1 WL should be able to stall without taking a wrap no? I am certain someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in on this one.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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Mykel, Agree with you on this point. It's a PDr and the weight-loading isn't as far over as others. Addtional training on the flare technique for an F-111 might help.

My only real concern about the sequence of events was the reserve ripcord handle "was pulled. Apparently, I didn't completely remove it." I'm thinking the reserve ripcord handle wasn't pulled/or properly. Your thoughts?

No way to tell without seeing the gear just after landing eh Keith? Once the reserve was opened I am sure there were other things to concentrate on at this point - I have seen handles dangling on more than once. However, most (if not all) skydivers need continued training for certain.

[NWFlyer 2]

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My toggles are properly adjusted and I can easily stall my canopy without taking a wrap - canopy type and WL play into factor I am sure - but a 1:1 WL should be able to stall without taking a wrap no? I am certain someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in on this one.

I don't claim to be more knowledgable, but I'm unfortunately experienced in the "shorten your brake lines to get a stall" mistake on a "docile" PD canopy. Mine's a Spectre, but it looks like PD says essentially same thing in the Sabre 2 manual about the stall characteristics as they do in the Spectre manual.

Sabre 2 manual:

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Stall Characteristics: As with the Spectre and the original Sabre, you may find that you can pull the toggles all the way down to full arm extension without stalling the Sabre2, especially if you are jumping a larger one. It’s important to remember that you do not have to be able to stall your canopy in order to land it correctly.

Technically, a stall means the canopy has dramatically reduced its lift and increased its rate of descent. A stalled canopy is not really “flying” any longer. If you want a soft landing, you really want your canopy to keep creating lift and maintain a low rate of descent until your feet are on the ground. If you adjust your steering toggles so that your canopy is easier to stall, it may actually become more difficult to land softly.

I had some really rough landings after taking some well-intentioned but misguided advice to shorten my steering lines dramatically. Had I gone and RTFM for the Spectre, I wouldn't have gone down that path.

Spectre Manual:

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Stall Characteristics: Depending on how much you weigh, you may not be able to stall a Spectre even if you hold the toggles all the way down. Quite a few skydivers, even very knowledgeable and experienced ones, believe that you must be able to stall a canopy with the toggles all the way down in order to land it correctly. This belief does not apply to many canopies, including the Spectre. When a canopy actually stalls, its lift decreases dramatically and its rate of descent rapidly increases. A stalled canopy is not really “flying.” If you want a soft landing, you want your canopy to keep creating lift and maintaining a low rate of descent until your feet are on the ground. If a canopy stalls while landing, it may set you rather abruptly on the ground. If you adjust your steering toggles so that your canopy is easier to stall, it may actually become more difficult to land softly.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Cloudi 0]

Exactly. People often confuse the meanings of "full flare" and "stall."

It is (and should be) quite difficult to stall a large and/or docile canopy, generally speaking. Stalling is not necessary for getting the best flare for landing. Quite the contrary.

People shorten their brake lines for several reasons. One example is their wee little arms are not long enough to flare the canopy fully with the factory settings. While shortening the control lines for that reason is valid, it should be noted that these adjustments should be made a little at a time to be sure they don't end up too short. That can cause the canopy to constantly fly in brakes...which reduces the amount of flare left at the end, and defeats the purpose of having them shortened in the first place! It will also make it necessary for the canopy to have its control lines replaced more often because of the tendancy for control lines to shrink faster than the other lines (Dacron & Microline).

Shortening your brake lines because you can't make the canopy stall without taking a wrap is not a good reason, IMO.

AFFI has a different experience under his Stiletto 135. It has a much shorter control range and will stall by flaring it the way someone else would flare, say a Sabre2 190, which requires a bit deeper flare and is more difficult to stall.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Shortening your brake lines because you can't make the canopy stall without taking a wrap is not a good reason, IMO.

Yup, learned that one the hard way, but it really is remarkable how many people are putting that out there as the "conventional wisdom." That recommendation came from more than one very experienced skydiver/instructor/rigger.

Thanks for clarifying the differences in the canopy types/sizes as well.

[Royd 0]

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I might be misunderstanding here... but the post was about taking a wrap to get a complete stall, not flaring. I wouldn't want to adjust my canopy to stall at full toggle extension under normal landing conditions.. I'd rather it was just starting to stall as I land.

I have been able to stall all of the student canopies that I flew, and thought that it was part of the control check, so just figured that I wasn't getting all of the energy out of the flair.

The stall point may be only two inches more than the length of my arms.

What is a stall turn, and might that have been the cause of the mal?

[tbrown 26]

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Sounds scary. I'd agree that it sounds self induced too. Royd, this would be an excellent time to take the next canopy control course that's offered at or near your DZ.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do that at the first opportunity.

Meant to say this the first time around, but I'm such a windbag I forgot. You should also run out and buy a copy of Brian Germain's "The Parachute and It's Pilot", an absolutely fabulous book. There's a whole Part II section about swooping you don't need to go into for the next few years, but the whole Part I about basic canopy control is a real must read. I like the way Brian explains things, it's a little different than the rest, but makes a lot of sense. As Brian explains it, the canopy is "trying" to fly up and away from you, which ideally should be putting tension on the suspension lines between you and said canopy. But if you go aggressively toggle whipping the poor thing, you can actually create slack, a lack of tension, on some or all the lines. And when that happens, wherever there is slack in the lines, you have NO control until the vital line tension is restored. Which is in a nutshell what happened when you went toggle whipping to show off to your family and gave them a better show than you had even counted on. (Rule No. 2 - Don't show off, it will get you every time. I planted my face under a 5 cell back in the seventies trying to show off. Eventually walked away from that one, but if I'd done that with my Pilot canopy nowadays, I'd have made the "Sports Page" in Parachutist).

Got another idea that you can act on RIGHT NOW. Before you even run out and buy his book, click the link to Skydive Radio.com on the home page of this website and download Show #14, there's a fabulous interview with the G Man himself and you need to hear it. So do we all. Get thee hence and listen up unto him, it may saveth thy bacon.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[jumper03 0]

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I had some really rough landings after taking some well-intentioned but misguided advice to shorten my steering lines dramatically. Had I gone and RTFM for the Spectre, I wouldn't have gone down that path.

hey - gave me some work to do!

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Meux 0]

Royd,

Glad to hear you're ok. There is talk of a canopy course being offered in October at Palatka. If you can't wait til then, it's a short drive to Deland and Scott Millers course.

You wild man, slow down. Looking forward to jumping with you again.

Another option at Deland is to contact Performance Designs to demo jump reserves. They will put a reserve chute on for you to jump. I did this a few weeks ago and found it to be time and money well spent. You and I are about the same size, my reserve is one size up from yours. On the ground I was thinking that my reserve is too small. (just checked my logbook, I went down to Deland the week after you and I jumped at Palatka on July 9)

My solution so far has been to think more about preventing malfunctions and just being mentally ready for that smaller chute if I go silver again.

Looking forward to jumping with you again.

Cheers,

MH