Concealed Carry Handgun?

[devildog 0]

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>What training do you mean?

For me it was Taekwondo, although I think if I had to do it over it would have been Aikido. There was a 60 year old woman in the Aikido class that met in the same dojo we did; no one could touch her and she never broke a sweat.

Doesn't help in a gun fight

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[Gravitymaster 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

[kelpdiver 2]

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Geez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging...

Being prepared for normal emergencies is not something for which anyone should feel the need to apologize or feel guilty, nor is that reason for others to make fun of those who choose to be prepared.

it's a fair question or friendly poke.

A decade ago, when I went backpacking, I had the perfect tool for 100 situations that never happened. The pack was so heavy it compromised my success. Food was especially ridiculous. The appetite is affected at high altitude (10k+), so I would have a variety of choices, but at the extreme I carried 8-10 lbs for a weekend for two. Now I carry a lot less food and make due with the choices.

Some of your answers were at home preparedness. i think he might have been asking what it looks like for you outside the home.

[airtwardo 7]

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Geez, John. You're making me wonder just how much stuff you lug around "based upon the small chance that you might need it". I have a visual: Trunk loaded to the point of rear bumper dragging...

Being prepared for normal emergencies is not something for which anyone should feel the need to apologize or feel guilty, nor is that reason for others to make fun of those who choose to be prepared.

it's a fair question or friendly poke.

A decade ago, when I went backpacking, I had the perfect tool for 100 situations that never happened. The pack was so heavy it compromised my success. Food was especially ridiculous. The appetite is affected at high altitude (10k+), so I would have a variety of choices, but at the extreme I carried 8-10 lbs for a weekend for two. Now I carry a lot less food and make due with the choices.

Some of your answers were at home preparedness. i think he might have been asking what it looks like for you outside the home.

Who ever said it's better to have something and not need it ~ than need something and not have it...never carried a clothes iron while pack-packing!






*true story...was out once in the boonies with a GF, my pack just didn't 'feel right'...she'd stowed a travel iron iron in MY gear! 'Honey...you need it ~ YOU hump it'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,070]

>Doesn't help in a gun fight

And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Doesn't help in a gun fight

And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

Hard for 80-year old granny to judo-flip the attacker when he's lifted her feet off the ground by that arm around her throat - all the more reason to have a defense that *WILL* work without letting them within arms reach.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Doesn't help in a gun fight

And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

why not? if you said your hands were bound behind your back, that would be something. Pull and shoot. Hell, just the sound alone at close range is going to hurt the attacker (you as well, but given the choices...)

[billvon 3,070]

>Hard for 80-year old granny to judo-flip the attacker when he's lifted her feet off the
>ground by that arm around her throat - all the more reason to have a defense that
>*WILL* work without letting them within arms reach.

?? You're making no sense. Once he has his arm around her neck a gun is useless - but having self defense training might just save her life.

If he DOESN'T have an arm around her neck, then something like aikido will prevent that from happening in the first place.

[billvon 3,070]

>>And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

>why not?

True. Pull that gun, aim at your head and fire. You'd stand a good chance of hitting him.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Hard for 80-year old granny to judo-flip the attacker when he's lifted her feet off the
>ground by that arm around her throat - all the more reason to have a defense that
>*WILL* work without letting them within arms reach.

?? You're making no sense. Once he has his arm around her neck a gun is useless

Kelp debunked that directly above.

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but having self defense training might just save her life.

Once her feet are off the ground, your judo-flip is useless.

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If he DOESN'T have an arm around her neck, then something like aikido will prevent that from happening in the first place.

And having a gun available will prevent him from getting within arm's reach in the first place.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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>>And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

>why not?

True. Pull that gun, aim at your head and fire. You'd stand a good chance of hitting him.

I'd prefer the gut shot myself. If I'm the 90lb lady you keep talking about, then his body is going to stick out. Put the gun along the end of my own torso and fire. If the guy is an opportunist attacker, he's going to cut and run. (If he's killing me for my inheritance, probably will be more determined)

[mnealtx 0]

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>>And guns don't help you when someone's arm is around your throat.

>why not?

True. Pull that gun, aim at your head and fire. You'd stand a good chance of hitting him.

Actually, no... I'd go for a shot into the leg. But then again, I've spoken to people who actually teach close range gun use and combatives.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,070]

>If I'm the 90lb lady you keep talking about, then his body is going to stick out. Put
>the gun along the end of my own torso and fire.

Have you trained to do that?

It is an axiom in both skydiving and martial arts that if you haven't trained to do something over and over you won't do it. You can tell yourself you will, but you really won't; you'll screw it up.

The reason things like aikido work is that you train over and over. Someone grabs you around the throat and you move your CG forward and take him down with you. Then someone grabs you again and you do the same thing. Then someone grabs you again and you do the same thing. Over and over until it's automatic. Then when it happens you do exactly what you trained to do - and often it works.

Now imagine someone who has never trained themselves for self defense sticks a gun in their purse. Someone grabs them around the neck. They open their purse and root around. Where is it? They're starting to black out. Oh, there it is. They pull it out. Assailant says "hey that little old lady has a gun and is holding it backwards. I could use a gun!" And they grab it.

Now she's being choked - and her assailant has a gun. Why did she screw it up? Because she didn't train to do it.

If you're going to tell me you are actually going to go to a range to train to "put the gun along the end of your own torso and fire" then that might be a good option. But I doubt Mike's "80 year old little old lady" will be firing her revolver along the side of her dress for practice. If she's going to put some effort into learning to protect herself, a basic self defense class is going to do far more than putting a revolver in her purse.

(However if she's willing to put the time into learning how to use that gun - and more importantly develop the situational awareness to not get herself in the above situations to begin with - then she's even better off.)

[mnealtx 0]

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>If I'm the 90lb lady you keep talking about, then his body is going to stick out. Put
>the gun along the end of my own torso and fire.

Have you trained to do that?

It is an axiom in both skydiving and martial arts that if you haven't trained to do something over and over you won't do it. You can tell yourself you will, but you really won't; you'll screw it up.

The reason things like aikido work is that you train over and over. Someone grabs you around the throat and you move your CG forward and take him down with you. Then someone grabs you again and you do the same thing. Then someone grabs you again and you do the same thing. Over and over until it's automatic. Then when it happens you do exactly what you trained to do - and often it works.

Until the attacker kicks your leg out from under you as he wraps his arm around your neck...or lifts you off the ground by that arm around your throat.

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Now imagine someone who has never trained themselves for self defense sticks a gun in their purse. Someone grabs them around the neck. They open their purse and root around. Where is it? They're starting to black out. Oh, there it is. They pull it out. Assailant says "hey that little old lady has a gun and is holding it backwards. I could use a gun!" And they grab it.

Now she's being choked - and her assailant has a gun. Why did she screw it up? Because she didn't train to do it.

Someone that is carrying a weapon for self-defense has likely trained to respond to a threat before it's within arm's reach. They do Tueller drills and practice moving off the line of attack. They do it over and over, until it's automatic.

Then when it happens you do exactly what you trained to do -and often it works.

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If you're going to tell me you are actually going to go to a range to train to "put the gun along the end of your own torso and fire" then that might be a good option. But I doubt Mike's "80 year old little old lady" will be firing her revolver along the side of her dress for practice.

And how often to akidokas train while being held off the ground by an arm around their throat?

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If she's going to put some effort into learning to protect herself, a basic self defense class is going to do far more than putting a revolver in her purse.

Most folks that have taken on that responsibility *do*, in fact, take courses and practice.

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(However if she's willing to put the time into learning how to use that gun - and more importantly develop the situational awareness to not get herself in the above situations to begin with - then she's even better off.)

Agreed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airtwardo 7]

The women that I know who carry concealed, never do so in a purse.

Would be akin to a man having it in a back-pack and sayin'
~just a minute...when it's needed.



Maybe some women DO put a handgun in their purse, but I doubt they've been actually trained in use and retention.





...just sayin'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kelpdiver 2]

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But I doubt Mike's "80 year old little old lady" will be firing her revolver along the side of her dress for practice.

I thought this was your "80 year old little lady?"

In any event, she's not going realistic drills where someone grabs her by the throat either. And certainly not in the volume necessary to make it automatic.

And what you're missing here is the criteria for success. In your aikido fantasy, she only succeeds if she takes him down forcefully enough to disable him and allow her to escape, or does it long enough that more people come to her aid.

The big bad guy isn't disabled merely because he's tossed to the ground. But he is going to be a little miffed about being bested by Betty White and he might now have a personal agenda about proving himself. He reengages. He might even pull out a weapon at this point. But I see little reason to believe he retreats.

But if she fires off a round, his first thought is not going to be: "ooh, a shiny toy!" It's going to be: "FUCK! This old bitch might shoot me! She was supposed to be easy pickings." It also makes a lot of noise that will attract attention from afar (including automatic police response in those areas with the gunshot tracker systems). He has to be pretty confident that he can maintain the upper hand and get that gun...or he's going to give her a good shove forward and run his ass off.

[billvon 3,070]

>In any event, she's not going realistic drills where someone grabs her by the throat either.

That is specifically trained for in most self defense classes. Instructors of such courses actually do know that attackers use that sort of approach. (And of course they teach you how not to get into that situation in the first place - which is far more important.)

Knowing how to defend yourself and practicing it is, by far, the best way to defend yourself. Buying a gun and sticking it in your pocket, imagining how you will shoot someone behind you if they dare try to rob you, is a very, very poor alternative. I don't know any responsible gun owner who'd blindly fire a weapon in public.

And again, we see this in skydiving all the time. You do what you train to do - not what you imagine would be neat to do.

[mnealtx 0]

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And again, we see this in skydiving all the time. You do what you train to do - not what you imagine would be neat to do.

Funny how your scenarios always assume highly trained martial artists, and gun owners that just 'bought a gun and stuck it in a pocket'...could you just maybe be going a little 'imagining' of your own?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

You guys are being dorks - you both are saying that you should be prepared and that whatever it is you are trained in is likely the best response.


then it's just a bunch of arguing and dick measuring about what did you personally would choose to train on

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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And again, we see this in skydiving all the time. You do what you train to do - not what you imagine would be neat to do.

Funny how your scenarios always assume highly trained martial artists, and gun owners that just 'bought a gun and stuck it in a pocket'...could you just maybe be going a little 'imagining' of your own?

yup - just like comparing a "little old lady" with "Someone that is carrying a weapon for self-defense has likely trained to respond to a threat before it's within arm's reach. They do Tueller drills and practice moving off the line of attack. They do it over and over, until it's automatic."




Frankly, the little old lady in my cartoon bubble won't practice at the Range and "twilly drills" over and over. But I doubt she'll be a black belt in anything either.

I just hope she can yell really loud and that the people around her aren't a bunch of cowards.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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>In any event, she's not going realistic drills where someone grabs her by the throat either.

That is specifically trained for in most self defense classes.

not to the full degree of realism - even the younger people would be getting bad neck bruises and back injuries. And for the seriously elderly, not a chance at all. In the best outcome of your scenario (where avoiding confrontation entirely fails), she's getting banged up by the experience. Though statistically it seems that fighting back by any means has a better average result than passive compliance, I wonder if that still holds up for those in the 70s and 80s.

I've seen a few rather elderly participants finishing daunting races like the Alcatraz Triathlon, but they're still finishing last and endurance isn't as helpful as speed and strength in a physical confrontation.

We do read, thanks to John, stories of 70+ year olds thwarting bad guys with handguns. How many stories have we seen of people defending themselves with aikido? While there's a strong bias towards reporting gun events, I think if an 80yo tossed a bad guy over her head with textbook technique she'd enjoy 15 minutes of fame on the national TV shows.

[airtwardo 7]

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>In any event, she's not going realistic drills where someone grabs her by the throat either.

That is specifically trained for in most self defense classes.

not to the full degree of realism - even the younger people would be getting bad neck bruises and back injuries. And for the seriously elderly, not a chance at all. In the best outcome of your scenario (where avoiding confrontation entirely fails), she's getting banged up by the experience. Though statistically it seems that fighting back by any means has a better average result than passive compliance, I wonder if that still holds up for those in the 70s and 80s.

I've seen a few rather elderly participants finishing daunting races like the Alcatraz Triathlon, but they're still finishing last and endurance isn't as helpful as speed and strength in a physical confrontation.

We do read, thanks to John, stories of 70+ year olds thwarting bad guys with handguns. How many stories have we seen of people defending themselves with aikido? While there's a strong bias towards reporting gun events, I think if an 80yo tossed a bad guy over her head with textbook technique she'd enjoy 15 minutes of fame on the national TV shows.

He's a 70 years the SHOULD have had a gun on him....I mean GEEZE, if ANYBODY should be 'carying'...





In July 1999 Charles Ewert, a business associate of Gaston Glock, hired a French ex-mercenary to murder Glock (who was 70 years old at that time[3]) with a mallet in a garage in Luxembourg in an apparent attempt to cover up embezzlement of millions from the Glock firearms company.

Although Glock's injuries included seven head wounds and the loss of about a litre of blood, Glock was able to fend off the attack by striking the hitman twice

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[devildog 0]

It's strange that militaries across the globe then train predominately with guns and not martial art skills.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[MikeJD 0]

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It's strange that militaries across the globe then train predominately with guns and not martial art skills.

But the circumstances, not least the distances involved, are surely very different. I don't see much correlation between the requirements of a soldier fighting a battle and someone having to defend himself against a mugger.

[devildog 0]

Well the point is, that we're comparing people with different levels of ability. We're saying, "What about a blackbelt vs a normal guy/girl with a gun at close range" That's silly. If we're going to compare defenses, the ability of both the aggressor and defender needs to be the same in whatever they choose to use. So, in a CQB, let's pit a blackbelt in whatever vs someone who's trained repeatedly in firearms, like a military unit, a SWAT team member, etc.

Again, there's a reason why guns are used now to kill people and not bare hands -- and that's because the firearm trumps in the vast, vast majority of scenarios, even up close and personal. Not too mention that a firearm at the very least, equalizes the encounter, if not gives you the upper hand.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.