rushmc 23
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GeorgiaDon 362
The "publish or perish" mandate has been around for a lot longer than since the '70s. The idea of linking research and teaching is rooted in the concept that doing publishable research forces the teacher to stay current with developments in their field, which is passed on to students in the lecture hall, and on the other hand having to teach forces the teacher to think/read more broadly than in just their specialized research focus.QuoteQuoteStreetScooby is talking about college, not public schools. While I'm sure there isn't a direct correlation, the beginning of the "publish or perish" mentality in universities coincides with the rather meteoric rise in tuitions beginning in the late 1970's.
Wendy P.
True
But this then beggs the question
People bitch about big this and big that
Why never Big Education?
Besides teaching undergraduates, I also have to train Masters and PhD and Postdoctoral level students, and at that level although there is some classroom work it is mostly gaining research experience, which means that I have to be able to provide the resources for these students to do publishable work. They have to learn the published literature in their field, and learn how to design rigorous experiments that test reasonable hypotheses using the most appropriate (which is often the most current) experimental techniques. When these students go to get a job, they have to be able to point to published papers to be competitive; everyone applying will have a degree, but it's the applicants with several published papers in the most selective journals who will actually get a second look. In my field, I can expect to pay $100,000+ just for reagents, animal care charges, and DNA sequencing for each published paper (this does not include student stipends/salary), and a PhD student is expected to publish at least 2-3 papers. I get no money from the University to support this, all the funding must be obtained from outside sources such as the American Heart Association, the National Institutes of Health (NIH), or the National Science Foundation (NSF). Currently NIH has the most money to fund research, and at the moment they are funding less than 10% of proposals. Each proposal takes months to put together (mostly working evenings and weekends, as the "work day" is full with teaching and other duties), and must be backed up with extensive preliminary experiments to prove the ideas are sound and there are no technical hurdles. These preliminary experiments take a year or more to do, and cost upwards of a couple of 100s of thousands of dollars (which must be scrounged out of any other grants one may have, as again the University has no funds to support this), and upwards of 90% of those proposals do not get funded. No grants means no money to support student research.
The escalation of tuition costs stems more from the fact that state funding for universities has declined dramatically in recent years, while student enrollment has continued to grow and there has been no relation of the expectations of the job. The college I am affiliated with is receiving about 37% less in real dollars from the state compared to only 5 years ago, yet we are expected to continue to teach all our courses, admit the majority of applicants, and train graduate students. Universities have been forced to rely more and more on outside sources, mainly overhead charged on research grants, so the pressure to get such grants is even greater. The universities are in a no-win situation, as state legislators are insistent that we can't reduce enrollment but they refuse to pay for it. Politicians get elected these days on promises of lower taxes, and the public is all too ready to believe they can get the same level of services as they used to without having to pay for it. If tuition has been skyrocketing put the blame where it lies, voters who elect politicians who make impossible promises just to get elected.
Also, there is a wide range of choices available in higher education. If you don't like big universities, there are a lot of small private colleges that promise (and deliver) lots of personal attention to each student. Don't expect them to be cheap, though, they'll cost you several times the tuition of large public universities. Your choice.
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
wmw999 2,447
Not data, but an experience data point. I used to have a relative who was a juvenile police officer in a fairly busy metro-suburban PD. She said that in her 15 or so years' experience, about 80% of the kids involved in the PD came from families that were seen as pretty bad, and about 20% were the "how did that happen" kids.QuoteThe parents are the one "constant" here
Likewise, about 80% of the kids from those "bad families" were involved in PD, and about 20% were of the "kid from bad environment does well" type.
So it can be overcome, but it probably takes a superior amount of inner fortitude. Not everyone is born with that, just as not everyone is born with an IQ of 120, varsity-squad speed, etc.
But while we can have productive citizens who aren't geniuses, or athletically gifted, it's hard to have productive citizens who see involvement with the PD as a standard.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
pirana 0
QuoteGet rid of unions in any government jobs, and remove all religous and social teachings from the classroom. this would be a good start to fix the education system. Teachers need to teach not sit on their asses and collect a paycheck or social engineer our kids.
I am appalled at how much time and effort are spent on social training issues. They do not hide it either, they just come right out and announce their socialization ciriculum. I mean, the topics are good ones; I just wish they'd leave that to me and spend more of their time on academics.
It would be a very sad statement if it were true that a significant chunk of kids need to get this from school because they do not get it from their parents.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
wmw999 2,447
Interesting; my father was a college professor (business administration) from the 50's through the 80's, and he seemed to indicate that publishing was good before the 70's, but essential after if you wanted tenure. Note that he was tenured at 3 separate universities, so it wasn't a matter of not being able to do it. It may just have been his area. He was notably bad at campus politics, and in fact spent 8 years outside of them on overseas assignments.
He sensed a lesser emphasis on undergraduate teaching by the time he retired. Now that may have been only the perception of a getting-tired-of-politics professor nearing retirement.
Wendy P.
He sensed a lesser emphasis on undergraduate teaching by the time he retired. Now that may have been only the perception of a getting-tired-of-politics professor nearing retirement.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rushmc 23
QuoteThe "publish or perish" mandate has been around for a lot longer than since the '70s. The idea of linking research and teaching is rooted in the concept that doing publishable research forces the teacher to stay current with developments in their field, which is passed on to students in the lecture hall, and on the other hand having to teach forces the teacher to think/read more broadly than in just their specialized research focus.QuoteQuoteStreetScooby is talking about college, not public schools. While I'm sure there isn't a direct correlation, the beginning of the "publish or perish" mentality in universities coincides with the rather meteoric rise in tuitions beginning in the late 1970's.
Wendy P.
True
But this then beggs the question
People bitch about big this and big that
Why never Big Education?
Besides teaching undergraduates, I also have to train Masters and PhD and Postdoctoral level students, and at that level although there is some classroom work it is mostly gaining research experience, which means that I have to be able to provide the resources for these students to do publishable work. They have to learn the published literature in their field, and learn how to design rigorous experiments that test reasonable hypotheses using the most appropriate (which is often the most current) experimental techniques. When these students go to get a job, they have to be able to point to published papers to be competitive; everyone applying will have a degree, but it's the applicants with several published papers in the most selective journals who will actually get a second look. In my field, I can expect to pay $100,000+ just for reagents, animal care charges, and DNA sequencing for each published paper (this does not include student stipends/salary), and a PhD student is expected to publish at least 2-3 papers. I get no money from the University to support this, all the funding must be obtained from outside sources such as the American Heart Association, the National Institutes of Health (NIH), or the National Science Foundation (NSF). Currently NIH has the most money to fund research, and at the moment they are funding less than 10% of proposals. Each proposal takes months to put together (mostly working evenings and weekends, as the "work day" is full with teaching and other duties), and must be backed up with extensive preliminary experiments to prove the ideas are sound and there are no technical hurdles. These preliminary experiments take a year or more to do, and cost upwards of a couple of 100s of thousands of dollars (which must be scrounged out of any other grants one may have, as again the University has no funds to support this), and upwards of 90% of those proposals do not get funded. No grants means no money to support student research.
The escalation of tuition costs stems more from the fact that state funding for universities has declined dramatically in recent years, while student enrollment has continued to grow and there has been no relation of the expectations of the job. The college I am affiliated with is receiving about 37% less in real dollars from the state compared to only 5 years ago, yet we are expected to continue to teach all our courses, admit the majority of applicants, and train graduate students. Universities have been forced to rely more and more on outside sources, mainly overhead charged on research grants, so the pressure to get such grants is even greater. The universities are in a no-win situation, as state legislators are insistent that we can't reduce enrollment but they refuse to pay for it. Politicians get elected these days on promises of lower taxes, and the public is all too ready to believe they can get the same level of services as they used to without having to pay for it. If tuition has been skyrocketing put the blame where it lies, voters who elect politicians who make impossible promises just to get elected.
Also, there is a wide range of choices available in higher education. If you don't like big universities, there are a lot of small private colleges that promise (and deliver) lots of personal attention to each student. Don't expect them to be cheap, though, they'll cost you several times the tuition of large public universities. Your choice.
Don
All notable points
But why, when state dollars are cut, doesn’t these state institutions trim? Instead they just raise prices?
I know what you are saying but there is more to it that what you post
But thanks for the post. I learned something! (BTW, I am NOT trying to be dismissive!! When I re-read it I could see how it could come across that way)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteAccess to a good education has a lot to do with it too. There is a huge amount of data showing that education correlates with success. Yet we continue to deprive whole segments of our society from a decent education.
Access to education is one thing. As a professor, you know that you can teach as much as you want but some people just cannot be educated. Education comes from school and from home. And it's a disgrace the lack of home support that kids receive.
As an aside, my wife and I are coming to the conclusion that there is nothing that can hold a person back as much as being the child of a teenage mother. Want to make it more probable that your kid will end up in prison or a group home? Have the kid as a teenager and try to raise the kid yourself.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
wmw999 2,447
Part of the prestige of a state (or city) is often in its educational institutions. If they reduce offerings or enrollement, that's seen as a reduction in service or educational quality.QuoteBut why, when state dollars are cut, doesn’t these state institutions trim? Instead they just raise prices?
Instead, there's a huge push to increase the prestige of a university by virtue of raising its offerings, number of graduate programs, etc.
I hadn't thought about the increased costs of doing research over the years -- thanks for pointing that out GeorgiaDon. I used to have a good friend who left academia because he wasn't good enough at getting funding; he finally decided that eating was better.
Sometimes one takes one's own observations (whether first-hand or second-hand) and makes conclusions. That's why data points aren't data (and why 13-year-olds tend to make such lousy decisions).
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rushmc 23
QuotePart of the prestige of a state (or city) is often in its educational institutions. If they reduce offerings or enrollement, that's seen as a reduction in service or educational quality.QuoteBut why, when state dollars are cut, doesn’t these state institutions trim? Instead they just raise prices?
Instead, there's a huge push to increase the prestige of a university by virtue of raising its offerings, number of graduate programs, etc.
I hadn't thought about the increased costs of doing research over the years -- thanks for pointing that out GeorgiaDon. I used to have a good friend who left academia because he wasn't good enough at getting funding; he finally decided that eating was better.
Sometimes one takes one's own observations (whether first-hand or second-hand) and makes conclusions. That's why data points aren't data (and why 13-year-olds tend to make such lousy decisions).
Wendy P.
Universities are a business
Prestige comes second
Do what is right to teach and do it well, and the rest will take care of itself
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
wmw999 2,447
People send their kids to universities based in large part on reputation. That's all prestige is. And from that prestige comes donations later on, too.
How do you know if a university is teaching well? Based on the graduates of 20 years ago? I'm sure the university will have changed in those 20 years -- how do you know, if not its reputation?
Teacher evaluations from students aren't the be-all and end-all -- we all know that they're simply popularity contests. And ask most employers -- where you went to college only makes a difference in your first job interview; after that no one really cares (at least we never did), except for networking purposes.
Wendy P.
How do you know if a university is teaching well? Based on the graduates of 20 years ago? I'm sure the university will have changed in those 20 years -- how do you know, if not its reputation?
Teacher evaluations from students aren't the be-all and end-all -- we all know that they're simply popularity contests. And ask most employers -- where you went to college only makes a difference in your first job interview; after that no one really cares (at least we never did), except for networking purposes.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rushmc 23
QuotePeople send their kids to universities based in large part on reputation. That's all prestige is. And from that prestige comes donations later on, too.
How do you know if a university is teaching well? Based on the graduates of 20 years ago? I'm sure the university will have changed in those 20 years -- how do you know, if not its reputation?
Teacher evaluations from students aren't the be-all and end-all -- we all know that they're simply popularity contests. And ask most employers -- where you went to college only makes a difference in your first job interview; after that no one really cares (at least we never did), except for networking purposes.
Wendy P.
Times change
Time to look at these schools as businesses and let the reputaion based on what employers are seeing be the determing factor of which is good and which isnt IMO
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
"Part of the prestige of a state (or city) is often in its educational institutions. If they reduce offerings or enrollement, that's seen as a reduction in service or educational quality."
The bulk of that prestige is derived from the football team. Walk to any campus. By far, the premiere structure on the grounds is the football stadium.
The problem is too complex for it to be blamed on a single factor. Social engineering by Government. Financial pressures. The full spectrum of issues a large business faces in competition in any industry.
The single factor that can be addressed by a student is whether or not to take full advantage of what is available to them. I relate the story of an young Miami/ Overtown man who, instead of playing basketball and "hangin'" spent his time practicing the french horn he received from the local high school. Our young man, who was roundly hooted at by the other kids, worked and finally received a scholarship to Julliard. The first to be thanked were his teachers, and then his parents. 100% true.
The bulk of that prestige is derived from the football team. Walk to any campus. By far, the premiere structure on the grounds is the football stadium.
The problem is too complex for it to be blamed on a single factor. Social engineering by Government. Financial pressures. The full spectrum of issues a large business faces in competition in any industry.
The single factor that can be addressed by a student is whether or not to take full advantage of what is available to them. I relate the story of an young Miami/ Overtown man who, instead of playing basketball and "hangin'" spent his time practicing the french horn he received from the local high school. Our young man, who was roundly hooted at by the other kids, worked and finally received a scholarship to Julliard. The first to be thanked were his teachers, and then his parents. 100% true.
wmw999 2,447
At least please don't point to the proprietary universities and schools as a model; many (though not all) of them base their business model on how many federal dollars they can get for their students. They have far higher federal loan rates than other institutions.
That's not the business model we're looking for, is it? Yeah, it makes money, but...
Most hiring managers don't hire enough students from different schools to really differentiate, do they? I sure didn't when I was one. I had to base it on course load, GPA, outside activities, and university reputation. As well as interview (which, of course, is also suspect, since it tends to bias the hire towards people who are similar to the interviewer, or who are just generally likeable).
Wendy P.
That's not the business model we're looking for, is it? Yeah, it makes money, but...
Most hiring managers don't hire enough students from different schools to really differentiate, do they? I sure didn't when I was one. I had to base it on course load, GPA, outside activities, and university reputation. As well as interview (which, of course, is also suspect, since it tends to bias the hire towards people who are similar to the interviewer, or who are just generally likeable).
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuoteThe bulk of that prestige is derived from the football team. Walk to any campus. By far, the premiere structure on the grounds is the football stadium.
A good football team can be a great moneymaker. My brother played for USC the past couple of years. And like it or not, the "prestige" of going to USC with a biomechanical engineering degree isn't going to mean much if he wants to go medical school. But "received letter in football at USC (ending No. 5 in country in polls)" is a head start that WILL be something that makes him stand out.
I've learned in my experience that school prestige means nothing after your first job. I've gone against Harvard lawyers and small-school-never-heard-of-non-accredited lawyers. It doesn't mean a damned thing.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
+1
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
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