I hope my effective tax rate will be 15% one day!

[billvon 2,998]

>A regressive tax is where everyone pays the same "amount" not the same "rate".

It's also defined as a rate that decreases with increasing income. For example, a flat 30% tax to $100,000 a year, and then 25% on every dollar above that, would be regressive.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Also isn't our military system just a big government subsidy for certain industries? How many aerospace companies do you think would survive if it weren't for our "need" to maintain a military bigger than the rest of the world combined?

Don

Yes, absolutely it is. The biggest example of corporate welfare is our military industrial complex. (Our prison industrial complex is not far behind).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[rehmwa 2]

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OK in principle. But how do you suggest dealing with the fact that other governments subsidize targeted industries to enable them to capture international markets. Does the US just cede every industry that China or whoever decides to "invest" in? Also isn't our military system just a big government subsidy for certain industries? How many aerospace companies do you think would survive if it weren't for our "need" to maintain a military bigger than the rest of the world combined?

that's more of a speech than a question, however

1 - I am talking principle. That's where we should start. thanks for agreeing

2 - Maybe we could compete in a 'less manipulated' market if the government would get out of the way - how do you know? Certainly those companies that do survive will be very efficient. If the populace has to pay taxes to keep an industry alive just because China starves their own people to do the same, is that industry really helping the whole populace of either country? Seriously, does every single taxpayer have to contribute $5 more a year in taxes just to keep the plastic poop company of Chicago alive - even if none of us ever wish to purchase plastic poop?

3 - miltary question - If we were more fiscally responsible - why shouldn't a few companies go out of business if they can't survive the competition of supporting a military that's reduced to a more reasonable mission statement?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>A regressive tax is where everyone pays the same "amount" not the same "rate".

It's also defined as a rate that decreases with increasing income. For example, a flat 30% tax to $100,000 a year, and then 25% on every dollar above that, would be regressive.

of course, (I didn't intend for example to inferred as the only type) my example is the end point - it can certainly even get more unbalanced in either direction when you manipulate rates as a function of income. Kind of my point really.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

You know this reminds me of affirmative action.
At some point there needs to be something put in place to forcibly level out the playing field. Let's face it the tools and strategies that someone like Romney can buy are well beyond what any middle class dick can buy. As such over the long run he and his kind pull ahead and mass fortunes that baring a serious hooker and blow addiction will do nothing but grow and grow and grow.

Now what middle class dick has a chance at any of that?
Answer? NONE! You just hope you do. Odds are it will never ever happen to you and thus the middle class will continue to fall ever further behind.
And unlike france where a few thousand of the top 1%'ers had their heads forcibly removed from their heads.......it won't happen here in the US. Because thought people like this make a shit load of money, you and I also make a little bit of money from their investments. And if they are killed off in effect we are killing off our little returns on our investments. And no one is ready to make that kind of sacrifice. Yet!

But I hope to see this guy run for office. Sure Obama isn't much to look at but a rich white northern prick who knows how to run the tax and finance system to make a quarter of a billion dollars Vs. the middle class guy who went to a state school and who though has no idea how to lead a nation appears to be someone normal folks can relate to!

The Occupy guys and gals are going to ass rape this dumb ass with a chain saw!

Look I'm not jeleous of the guy if he made his money the honest way as in he worked for it.
I don't mind getting rich but i just don't want to do it on the backs of old ladies.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,998]

>At some point there needs to be something put in place to forcibly level out the playing field.

What does that mean? Give everyone the money, private jets etc that Romney has access to? Or make sure no one, including Romney, can get them?

>I don't mind getting rich but i just don't want to do it on the backs of old ladies.

Everyone (with very few exceptions) gets rich "on someone else's back." That's what being in an economy like ours means - everything is interconnected. If you make a lot of money on a company stock, one of the likely reasons they did well is that they know how to lay off their worst employees (even little old ladies.) If you sell the stock, you drive the price down a bit, and some little old lady might not have as much to retire on.

However, since a working economy helps everyone, generally it's better for most people (including little old ladies) to keep it working.

[shah269 0]

Like tax the hell out of the SOB once he makes more than $1million per year and take that tax money and maybe hire a few more teachers?
OMG yeah I said that...hire more teachers and police officers!
You know...those scum sucking low life middle class loosers who have no clue how to hide their income from the feds.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,027]

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>At some point there needs to be something put in place to forcibly level out the playing field.

What does that mean? Give everyone the money, private jets etc that Romney has access to? Or make sure no one, including Romney, can get them?

>I don't mind getting rich but i just don't want to do it on the backs of old ladies.

Everyone (with very few exceptions) gets rich "on someone else's back." That's what being in an economy like ours means - everything is interconnected. .

Right, but one you have got rich on the backs of little old ladies, you shouldn't then be taxed at a lower rate than the little old ladies.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Right, but one you have got rich on the backs of little old ladies, you shouldn't then be taxed at a lower rate than the little old ladies.

how much are those little old ladies paying? If you're not working, SS isn't taxed. But withdrawls from IRAs or 401ks are taxed as regular income, same with interest from (non muni) bonds and savings accounts. Average SS payment in 2011 was 1177 (14124). The 10% and 15% brackets go to 35,350 for a single person. Standard deduction is 5950. Those little ladies can earn up to just under 90k and have a resulting income tax rate of 15%.

They can still earn more and keep at that rate with dividend payouts, which is a good retiree play. Any long term capital gains would also be at the 15%, and if they choose they could invest in muni bonds and pay nothing on this.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But now you'll hear people insist that it's unfair to tax everyone at the same rate - it's a regressive tax.

no, a simple (no deductions, etc) flat tax rate is a progressive tax (the more you make the more you pay.)

A tax where everyone pays the same "amount" not the same "rate" is an example of a regressive tax. And that's only regressive interms of percent of income. But usually we define progressive and regressive in terms of percent of income, not actually contribution.

sales tax is a constant rate, but is generally considered to be a regressive tax.

[wmw999 2,452]

Sorry, but you're wrong about SS not being taxed. It is, if you have enough other income. I used to do my father's taxes. He also had pensions, but that made his SS taxable as well.

IRS info

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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>And Romneys isnt sallary either (for the most part)

True. Much of it is interest income from Cayman Islands bank accounts and capital gains from appreciation of stock in Cayman Island funds. He has $8 million in 12 Cayman Islands funds and another somewhat mysterious investment there that is worth between $5 and $25 million. (This should come as no surprise; his company, Bain Capital. once set up 138 secret accounts in the Caymans for investors who wanted to avoid US taxes.)

So I guess the lesson for people who do not want to pay much in taxes is:

1) Make lots of money
2) Move that money out of the US and invest it in foreign tax havens
3) Keep some of it secret

Sorry
He did pay his taxes
None of it was secret
He followed the law
Nothing he is doing is illegal
...for him or you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>Sorry
>He did pay his taxes
>None of it was secret

He did pay his taxes and some of it is secret. There are a great many things you do not have to report to the IRS.

>He followed the law

Agreed. There are a lot of legal tax dodges out there, especially for investors who are willing to move money to offshore accounts, companies and investment vehicles.

[kallend 2,027]

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Sorry, but you're wrong about SS not being taxed. It is, if you have enough other income. I used to do my father's taxes. He also had pensions, but that made his SS taxable as well.

IRS info

Wendy P.

Yep, and a reasonably prudent LOL with SS and a decent 401k can easily be paying at a higher rate than Romney.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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>Sorry
>He did pay his taxes
>None of it was secret

He did pay his taxes and some of it is secret. There are a great many things you do not have to report to the IRS.

>He followed the law

Agreed. There are a lot of legal tax dodges out there, especially for investors who are willing to move money to offshore accounts, companies and investment vehicles.

Remember, I do not like Mitt

But you imply he is doing something wrong

That implication is not true

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>But you imply he is doing something wrong

I am SAYING he did nothing illegal. Whether or not it's wrong to move your money to offshore companies and investment funds to avoid a high tax rate is another discussion.

[kallend 2,027]

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Quote

>Sorry
>He did pay his taxes
>None of it was secret

He did pay his taxes and some of it is secret. There are a great many things you do not have to report to the IRS.

>He followed the law

Agreed. There are a lot of legal tax dodges out there, especially for investors who are willing to move money to offshore accounts, companies and investment vehicles.

Remember, I do not like Mitt

But you imply he is doing something wrong

That implication is not true

No one suggested he did anything illegal.

The suggestion is that (a) he is hopelessly out of touch with average Americans, and (b) his (legal) behavior is inappropriate in someone who wants to be the President of the USA.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>But you imply he is doing something wrong

I am SAYING he did nothing illegal. Whether or not it's wrong to move your money to offshore companies and investment funds to avoid a high tax rate is another discussion.

Good thing the Chinese and other Investors who move their money offshore to invest in America don't think like you do.

[rushmc 23]

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Quote

Quote

>Sorry
>He did pay his taxes
>None of it was secret

He did pay his taxes and some of it is secret. There are a great many things you do not have to report to the IRS.

>He followed the law

Agreed. There are a lot of legal tax dodges out there, especially for investors who are willing to move money to offshore accounts, companies and investment vehicles.

Remember, I do not like Mitt

But you imply he is doing something wrong

That implication is not true

No one suggested he did anything illegal.

The suggestion is that (a) he is hopelessly out of touch with average Americans, and (b) his (legal) behavior is inappropriate in someone who wants to be the President of the USA.

Good thing it is just your opinion

And I understand that jealousy has a way of coloring ones views of others

So I will take that into account

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>Good thing the Chinese and other Investors who move their money offshore to invest
>in America don't think like you do.

Do you think we should be supporting American or Chinese companies?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>Good thing the Chinese and other Investors who move their money offshore to invest
>in America don't think like you do.

Do you think we should be supporting American or Chinese companies?

As an investor, I put my money where I get the greatest return. I would question the intellect of anyone who didn't invest with that attitude. Plus I seriously doubt Romney makes the daily decisions on which stocks to invest in. This attempt to attack him on this is a major fail.

Do you own any foreign stocks?

[billvon 2,998]

>As an investor, I put my money where I get the greatest return.

Most people do; so does Romney. Nothing wrong with that.

However, once you do that, you don't get to claim that you want people to invest in America. Indeed, a leader who invests in foreign companies to improve his bottom line might lead people to think "gosh, I’m not sure I want to invest in America."*

(* - and that, of course, is a quote directly from Romney himself.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sorry, but you're wrong about SS not being taxed. It is, if you have enough other income. I used to do my father's taxes. He also had pensions, but that made his SS taxable as well.

IRS info

thanks, Wendy. I know the SS laws are a spider web of fun. I mostly ignore it since I have little expectation of it ever paying me, and at the very least will be very different (means testing seems a given).

So the math gets altered a little - the LOL can earn about 76k straight up before having to do financial planning of any sort. With intelligent use of income stocks and a roth ira/401k, 100k/yr seems easily obtainable for the price of 15k in income tax.

But in reality when we're parading out a few pretty silver foxes for political gain, they're not reporting 6 figures on their tax return. Their incomes will be less than half that, and they're certainly not paying 15%. (nor should they, be there any confusion)

[rehmwa 2]

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sales tax is a constant rate, but is generally considered to be a regressive tax.

we're talking income tax, but anyway


that's kind of an idiotic consideration if you think about it - if the rate is constant, then you pay more for the more that you BUY. seems a bit silly to call that regressive, progressive, or neutral - it's all about your purchase choices......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>As an investor, I put my money where I get the greatest return.

Most people do; so does Romney. Nothing wrong with that.

However, once you do that, you don't get to claim that you want people to invest in America. Indeed, a leader who invests in foreign companies to improve his bottom line might lead people to think "gosh, I’m not sure I want to invest in America."*

(* - and that, of course, is a quote directly from Romney himself.)

So is it your opinion that anyone who has ever held foreign stocks or owned a % of a non-American Company is not qualified to be President of the U.S.?

How about a President who awards contracts to foreign companies to build automobiles for Americans?

Do you find it un-American to pass laws that drive American companies off shore so they can compete with products manufactured in other countries? Would someone who did that be un-qualified to be President?