Gingrich wanted ‘open marriage’ with both wife and mistress

[rushmc 23]

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But in the end, some things are right and some are wrong. There is very little gray area

The definition of what's right and what's wrong has changed. It used to be right to own people. It used to be right that only men voted. It used to be right that women were daughters or wives, and had no serious legal rights or existence of their own. It used to be right that Christmas was a heathen celebration.

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Harrassment is wrong in any context. Special laws are not needed to define that in a moral society

It used to be OK to taunt people because they were black or hispanic or irish, depending on where you were. Hazing used to be an accepted part of getting into a fraternity. When a classmate of mine interviewed for a job as an electrical engineer, she was informed that as a woman, she would be expected to cook the turkey for the company's Thanksgiving party. It used to be OK for the boss to ask the secretary to come sit on his lap and take dictation in some offices.

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And a big arguement agains religion is that ones morality is being pushed on another.

I submit that it is happening the other way. Through political correctness and the liberal courts, a morality other than what was considered normal during the founding of this country is being pushed out on everybody

Morality is how each of us lives and conducts ourselves. It doesn't come from the outside, it comes from the inside. Exercising it might mean that we lose some things that others get (like dating while married), but it means that we gain other things, like a sense of rightness with ourselves.

Life is different from what it was when the Founding Fathers started this all. To say that some societal/moral rules cannot be re-evaluated or change, while others can, is kind of arbitrary.

Wendy P.

It has never been right to own people

Even those that did knew that back then IMO

Right and wrong does not change

The definition does (as you say) but not what right and wrong actually is

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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And a big arguement agains religion is that ones morality is being pushed on another

I submit that it is happening the other way. Through political correctness and the liberal courts, a morality other than what was considered normal during the founding of this country is being pushed out on everybody

Who has forced you to have sex with another man, Marc? Who has forced your wife to have an abortion? Who is forcing your kids into homosexual marriages?

The only pushing of their morality on others is being done by the religious right.

You are wrong

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Coreece 190]

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It used to be OK for the boss to ask the secretary to come sit on his lap and take dictation in some offices.

Then call me old fashioned!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[wmw999 2,457]

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It has never been right to own people

Even those that did knew that back then IMO

It's in the Bible, it was in the law -- I'll submit that many, many people knew it was right.

And -- if a US citizen, over 21, were to want to sell themselves to someone else, should we object? Is it their right to do with their own freedom what they want?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,027]

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And a big arguement agains religion is that ones morality is being pushed on another

I submit that it is happening the other way. Through political correctness and the liberal courts, a morality other than what was considered normal during the founding of this country is being pushed out on everybody

Who has forced you to have sex with another man, Marc? Who has forced your wife to have an abortion? Who is forcing your kids into homosexual marriages?

The only pushing of their morality on others is being done by the religious right.

You are wrong

Easy to say that. So who is forcing you to behave according to their morality?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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It has never been right to own people

Even those that did knew that back then IMO

It's in the Bible, it was in the law -- I'll submit that many, many people knew it was right.

And -- if a US citizen, over 21, were to want to sell themselves to someone else, should we object? Is it their right to do with their own freedom what they want?

Wendy P.

Yes!

A person can not own another

Period

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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And a big arguement agains religion is that ones morality is being pushed on another

I submit that it is happening the other way. Through political correctness and the liberal courts, a morality other than what was considered normal during the founding of this country is being pushed out on everybody

Who has forced you to have sex with another man, Marc? Who has forced your wife to have an abortion? Who is forcing your kids into homosexual marriages?

The only pushing of their morality on others is being done by the religious right.

You are wrong

Easy to say that. So who is forcing you to behave according to their morality?

Did I use the word behave?

Accept is another thing though isnt it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,027]

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And a big arguement agains religion is that ones morality is being pushed on another

I submit that it is happening the other way. Through political correctness and the liberal courts, a morality other than what was considered normal during the founding of this country is being pushed out on everybody

Who has forced you to have sex with another man, Marc? Who has forced your wife to have an abortion? Who is forcing your kids into homosexual marriages?

The only pushing of their morality on others is being done by the religious right.

You are wrong

Easy to say that. So who is forcing you to behave according to their morality?

Did I use the word behave?

Accept is another thing though isnt it

So no-one is actually making you change your behavior to conform with their morality. Thought not.

It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

this is a tangent to the social topics you and rush are poking each other with, but I have two small words that represent a bigger issue:



light bulbs

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,457]

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Accept is another thing though isnt it

Where does morality end, and behavior begin?

Why is it OK for some people to enforce a morality that limits the behavior of those who don't agree with that morality?

Is homosexuality right or wrong? How do you know?
Is transgenderism right or wrong? How do you know?
Is slavery right or wrong? How do you know?

There are rights and wrongs, but I'm not sure the Christian religion is the sole source of them. Otherwise, we'd have to accept that whole slavery thing.

These questions are harder, the more crowded we get. It's not like 150 years ago, when a group could just gather up and go west to where there were only Indians to displace.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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Accept is another thing though isnt it

Where does morality end, and behavior begin?

Why is it OK for some people to enforce a morality that limits the behavior of those who don't agree with that morality? If one is accountable for their actions in a society? Then Yes. Or there is no line between what is right and wrong

Is homosexuality right or wrong? How do you know?
Is transgenderism right or wrong? How do you know?
Is slavery right or wrong? How do you know?

There are rights and wrongs, but I'm not sure the Christian religion is the sole source of them. Otherwise, we'd have to accept that whole slavery thing.

These questions are harder, the more crowded we get. It's not like 150 years ago, when a group could just gather up and go west to where there were only Indians to displace.

Wendy P.

No Wendy

the question is not harder

But the excuses get more creative

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,457]

What makes right, and what makes wrong?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 2]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

[rushmc 23]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

OK - looking at it objectively, I'll grant that liberals forced morality on others by enacting anti-discrimination laws, so that shopkeepers, hotel owners, restaurants, public bus operators, etc., who believed in racial segregation, were forced to accommodate everyone, and not just white people. Please address the good-vs.-bad of that example.

Yep

just like the Democratic party laying claim to ending slavery

nice

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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What makes right, and what makes wrong?

Wendy P.

The priciples and valuse under which this country was founded

Changing them is the begining of the end

Morality is the linch pin of a society that will survice

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,027]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

[rushmc 23]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

OK - looking at it objectively, I'll grant that liberals forced morality on others by enacting anti-discrimination laws, so that shopkeepers, hotel owners, restaurants, public bus operators, etc., who believed in racial segregation, were forced to accommodate everyone, and not just white people. Please address the good-vs.-bad of that example.

Kind of like the Dems saying they were the ones who got the civil rights bill through Congress

Any other crazy claims?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

So you can't answer the question. OK.

Fact is, NO-ONE is forcing anyone into a gay marriage or to have an abortion against their will. The desire for moral coercion is all coming from your side.

[kallend 2,027]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

So you can't answer the question. OK.

Fact is, NO-ONE is forcing anyone into a gay marriage or to have an abortion against their will. The desire for moral coercion is all coming from your side.

do you really think I am going to spend any time with someone who can not honestly answer questions asked of him??

IE gun control (as an example of you positon honesty)

Twist if you wish teach

Makes no difference to me

[rushmc 23]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

So you can't answer the question. OK.

Fact is, NO-ONE is forcing anyone into a gay marriage or to have an abortion against their will. The desire for moral coercion is all coming from your side.

do you really think I am going to spend any time with someone who can not honestly answer questions asked of him??

IE gun control (as an example of you positon honesty)

Twist if you wish teach

Makes no difference to me

You know quite well my position on gun control - I have no objections to guns in the hands of sane adults who have not been convicted of felonies. Felons and nutters shouldn't have access to guns. The only twisting being done is by you, since I've stated my position over and over again.

Ya


right

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,457]

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The priciples and valuse under which this country was founded

Changing them is the begining of the end

Morality is the linch pin of a society that will survice

Which parts of 18th century morality need to survive? The ones I mentioned earlier (like the legal status of women and slaves?), the ones that Christian churchs like (marriage as a church entity, tithing), and if so -- which church?

Should we quit allowing contraception, since it didn't exist (reliably) then? Or should we only allow it within the context of marriage, so that single people who fuck pay the price.

Morality isn't about making sure that other people pay the price for what one considers to be an infraction. It's about what each person does to build the society.

Personally, I think that right now America is too hyped up on getting things done perfectly. If I were to go out and (for example) paint the mailboxes locally that are rusted out, well, I'm sure someone will object that the color doens't quite match, and that it's the post office that's supposed to do it.

We all want the world to match our expectations, and so much of it is so good at it (all those retail opportunities exist because of that), that we are frustrated when something doens't.

Rush, there are people out there of both genders who are not sexually attracted to members of hte opposite sex. There are people out there of both genders who feel, just as deeply as you feel right about being a man, wrong about being what their gender assignment says. They exist, and with teh size of the US population, the raw numbers are not negligible. In the past, their opinions didn't matter, just as previously those of women, black people, etc. didn't matter.

But just as we now think it was wrong to say that women and black people didn't matter outside their assigned roles, maybe, just maybe, all these "weird" people also should be listened to.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,027]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

So you can't answer the question. OK.

Fact is, NO-ONE is forcing anyone into a gay marriage or to have an abortion against their will. The desire for moral coercion is all coming from your side.

do you really think I am going to spend any time with someone who can not honestly answer questions asked of him??

IE gun control (as an example of you positon honesty)

Twist if you wish teach

Makes no difference to me

You know quite well my position on gun control - I have no objections to guns in the hands of sane adults who have not been convicted of felonies. Felons and nutters shouldn't have access to guns. The only twisting being done is by you, since I've stated my position over and over again.

Ya


right

So why do you want felons and nutters to have guns, marc?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,006]

>Newt represents his supporters, not himself.

Yep. Do we really need a Freddie Mac representative in the presidency?

>Politics is a dirty business...

Indeed.

[Andy9o8 2]

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It's only the religious right that wants to force its morality on the rest of us.

You need to get out of your safe room if you really believe this

OK - looking at it objectively, I'll grant that liberals forced morality on others by enacting anti-discrimination laws, so that shopkeepers, hotel owners, restaurants, public bus operators, etc., who believed in racial segregation, were forced to accommodate everyone, and not just white people. Please address the good-vs.-bad of that example.

Kind of like the Dems saying they were the ones who got the civil rights bill through Congress

Any other crazy claims?

You know, Marc, in a moment of weakness I laid-aside my usual policy of not wasting time speaking directly to you in SC because I thought you might be willing to have a reasonable discussion, instead of just putting your dukes up and dismissively blowing me off with some one-liner. Thanks for bringing me back to reality.