lawrocket 3 #1 January 24, 2012 President Obama’s State of the Union Speech will be tonight. And if a listener were to sip a beer every time the word “fair” (or one of its variants, i.e., “fairness”) is stated, I can make a reasonable bet that the person will be tanked a half hour into it. The word “fair” is a frequent statement. But what is fairness? Isn’t “fair” just a word being used that is meant to apply to everyone? I also must think that Shakespeare had it right. “Fair is foul and foul is fair.” Because what is fair for the wolf is death to the sheep. Those involved in law or sales are familiar with the term “puffery.” A simple definition is that puffery/puffing means making statements about something that cannot be objectively proven or disproven. An example is “this is the best car on the lot.” Issue – what is “best?” By what metric is “best” measured? The “best” car for me will have a five star safety rating. For someone else, the “best” car may be body styling. Another may want mileage. Or raw power and torque. This is an example of my problem with the free use of the term “fair.” How does one define “fair?” How do you define “fair?” What do you look for to determine “fairness?” My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #2 January 24, 2012 QuotePresident Obama’s State of the Union Speech will be tonight. And if a listener were to sip a beer every time the word “fair” (or one of its variants, i.e., “fairness”) is stated, I can make a reasonable bet that the person will be tanked a half hour into it. The word “fair” is a frequent statement. But what is fairness? Isn’t “fair” just a word being used that is meant to apply to everyone? I also must think that Shakespeare had it right. “Fair is foul and foul is fair.” Because what is fair for the wolf is death to the sheep. Those involved in law or sales are familiar with the term “puffery.” A simple definition is that puffery/puffing means making statements about something that cannot be objectively proven or disproven. An example is “this is the best car on the lot.” Issue – what is “best?” By what metric is “best” measured? The “best” car for me will have a five star safety rating. For someone else, the “best” car may be body styling. Another may want mileage. Or raw power and torque. This is an example of my problem with the free use of the term “fair.” How does one define “fair?” How do you define “fair?” What do you look for to determine “fairness?” Fair to me means everyone contributes or is excluded. It also means all are allowed to contribute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #3 January 24, 2012 QuotePresident Obama’s State of the Union Speech will be tonight. And if a listener were to sip a beer every time the word “fair” (or one of its variants, i.e., “fairness”) is stated, I can make a reasonable bet that the person will be tanked a half hour into it. You're on! Anyone else wanna play? QuoteMy wife is hotter than your wife. That's not fair! I think a breast reduction and face drop are in order! No make-up ...and here's a life time supply of Mcdonalds gift cards Fat Person: That's not fair! I want free Mcdonalds!Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #4 January 24, 2012 >And if a listener were to sip a beer every time the word “fair” (or one of its variants, >i.e., “fairness”) is stated, I can make a reasonable bet that the person will be tanked a >half hour into it. So it would be a bad night to open a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #5 January 24, 2012 QuoteI also must think that Shakespeare had it right. “Fair is foul and foul is fair.” Oh sir, you're going to quote MacBeth in defense of the concept fairness isn't something that actually exists? Really? The one in which witches cast a spell of ambition over a returning General and cause him to go on a murder spree including killing his king justified by those very words? Oh sir, you probably shouldn't just look up quotes you think are convenient, but actually know the context in which they're used. “Fair is foul and foul is fair," does not mean what you think it means and you should not sully The Bard's words by twisting them so lest we invoke a far more famous quote about what to do with lawyers.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #6 January 24, 2012 QuoteSo it would be a bad night to open a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin? Even without knowing that specific brew, with a name like that, what night would not be a good night?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #7 January 24, 2012 I know what the Bard was saying. I left out the "Hover through the fog and filthy air" part because I thought it would be too much. I just gave a new take on it. (I’m the guy that wrote a term paper on Hamlet describing him not as indecisive but as a pragmatist who didn’t account for all the variables. Earned me an A because the assignment called for something other than “Hamlet was indecisive.”) The witches in Macbeth were indeed agents of evil. To them what was foul was good and what was fair was bad. Fair is foul and foul is fair. But that’s the point of what people regard as fairness. Fair to the sheep is death to the wolf. Fairness – ESPECIALLY in the political arena – is not “fair.” It is choosing winners and losers. It isn’t about balancing equities or anything of that sort. Socking it to the 1% is easy to do in a democratically based government, because that 1% doesn’t have enough voting power to stop it. That is foul. But it is argued to be fair. What is “fair?” Measure for Measure? Hey, Angelo was merely doing what he was told. Was it fair that Claudio was being punished by death for fornication? Iabella didn’t think so but others thought it a just punishment. What is “fair?” Does “fairness” even exist in politics? Because I suspect that “fair” will mean that a class of people will have to pay more. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #8 January 24, 2012 Quote What is “fair?” Whoa, what a can of worms... I think we all know what most liberals mean when they use this phrase. They want "rich" peoples' money without due consideration to the effort, trials and tribulations such people endure to get their money. That's my simplified take, though I'm sure there are exceptions that can be made to this. Ultimately, this question can only be answered in the context of one's values.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #9 January 24, 2012 Quote Quote So it would be a bad night to open a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin? Even without knowing that specific brew, with a name like that, what night would not be a good night? Oddly enough, I got "Tactical Nucle" typed into the search box when Tactical Nuclear Penguin came up as the top suggestion. Interesting... Sort of a "hard cider to applejack" approach with beer instead of hard cider. And "Fair" is a totally subjective word. Like "Right", "Wrong", "Moral", and so on. What's "Fair" to me is horribly unfair to someone else. Personally, I don't think it's fair that idiots who bought homes that they should have known they couldn't afford get help on their mortgages while those who bought a house within their price range and have been making the payments on time (like me) don't get any help."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 January 24, 2012 QuoteWhat is “fair?” Fair is following what society agrees upon and codifies in rules. Sometimes we call those laws. Unfairness is attempting to circumvent that. It's taking a shortcut we all agreed before hand wasn't part of the race. It's playing the game via loopholes rather than just running the damn race.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #11 January 24, 2012 Quote>And if a listener were to sip a beer every time the word “fair” (or one of its variants, >i.e., “fairness”) is stated, I can make a reasonable bet that the person will be tanked a >half hour into it. So it would be a bad night to open a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin? Send me a bottle and I'll let you know!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 January 24, 2012 Fair is where you get cotton candy, deep fried twinkies, and ride the big wheel.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #13 January 24, 2012 Rule of thumb: If anyone has to tell you that what they propose is fair, it most assuredly is not. Similar concepts: If anyone takes the time to tell you that they are honest, they are not. If anyone tells you they are not an idiot, they are. When someone wants you to "do the right thing," they want you to do their bidding. etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #14 January 24, 2012 >If anyone takes the time to tell you that they are honest, they are not. "I am not a crook." "I did not have sex with that woman." "I am not gay." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #15 January 24, 2012 Quote>If anyone takes the time to tell you that they are honest, they are not. "I am not a crook." "I did not have sex with that woman." "I am not gay." Bingo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #16 January 24, 2012 "I am not guilty." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 January 24, 2012 Quote"I am not guilty." "it's only a flesh wound" "I just want to cuddle" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #18 January 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhat is “fair?” Fair is following what society agrees upon and codifies in rules. Sometimes we call those laws. Unfairness is attempting to circumvent that. It's taking a shortcut we all agreed before hand wasn't part of the race. It's playing the game via loopholes rather than just running the damn race. Now you are getting somewhere! Rules agreed on beforehand. How about the changing of the rules? There have been rules that people have relied on. Such as the person who invested with the expectation of being able to earn back money for it. Let's say the tax rate is doubled on it? What then? Dave made a good point – there is some asset there and not all will be lost. He’s right that the investor can pull out of his/her investment and liquidate in order to get back something. So if my notional investor decided to sell off the machines, etc., and lay off the employees he could perhaps see a return of a couple of million dollars. This doesn’t help the people laid off unless there is another place that will take them on as employees or buy the machinery. But is this what we want? Changing the rules can be viewed as unfair when people rely on the previous rules. In reliance of the rules they act in a certain way. When the rules are changed, they can find themselves in detriment. Is that fair to them? For whom is it fair? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #19 January 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat is “fair?” Fair is following what society agrees upon and codifies in rules. Sometimes we call those laws. Unfairness is attempting to circumvent that. It's taking a shortcut we all agreed before hand wasn't part of the race. It's playing the game via loopholes rather than just running the damn race. Now you are getting somewhere! Rules agreed on beforehand. ? What if 99% of the citizens didn't agree, but 1% paid handsomely to have the rules written to benefit them?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 January 24, 2012 QuoteWhat if 99% of the citizens didn't agree, but 1% paid handsomely to have the rules written to benefit them? Only 1% of the citizenry have investments? That doesn't sound right at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 January 24, 2012 QuoteChanging the rules can be viewed as unfair when people rely on the previous rules. In reliance of the rules they act in a certain way. When the rules are changed, they can find themselves in detriment. Is that fair to them? For whom is it fair? Okies, let's go down that road. For about a hundred years US industries and labor fought back and forth about what was "fair." They codified the rules in labor agreements and national labor laws regarding things like safety, work hours and minimum wages. Then sometime is the '80s, the companies decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie and could have it by hiring people overseas to do the work without regard to those agreements, including the ones about safety, work hours and minimum wages. Was that a "fair" thing to do to humanity? They exported jobs, but not working conditions. They created the very climate in which remaining companies found it impossible to compete unless they did the same. They destroyed vast sectors of the national economy for their own best interests and now whine they need subsidies in order to continue to be in business in the US while sheltering money overseas. Is that "fair?"quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #22 January 24, 2012 QuoteWhat if 99% of the citizens didn't agree, but 1% paid handsomely to have the rules written to benefit them? A fine hypothetical. I didn't agree to the Constitution or the Magna Carta. Nobody ever asked me about whether I agreed murder should be illegal. But those were the rules growing up and we've all been aware of the consequence. Are you suggesting that disagreement with the rules is good cause for anarchy? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #23 January 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhat if 99% of the citizens didn't agree, but 1% paid handsomely to have the rules written to benefit them? Only 1% of the citizenry have investments? That doesn't sound right at all. Try re-reading what I wrote. It had to do with buying off the lawmakers, not who has investments.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 January 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteChanging the rules can be viewed as unfair when people rely on the previous rules. In reliance of the rules they act in a certain way. When the rules are changed, they can find themselves in detriment. Is that fair to them? For whom is it fair? Okies, let's go down that road. For about a hundred years US industries and labor fought back and forth about what was "fair." They codified the rules in labor agreements and national labor laws regarding things like safety, work hours and minimum wages. Then sometime is the '80s, the companies decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie and could have it by hiring people overseas to do the work without regard to those agreements, including the ones about safety, work hours and minimum wages. Was that a "fair" thing to do to humanity? They exported jobs, but not working conditions. They created the very climate in which remaining companies found it impossible to compete unless they did the same. They destroyed vast sectors of the national economy for their own best interests and now whine they need subsidies in order to continue to be in business in the US while sheltering money overseas. Is that "fair?" I suspect that the people in those other countries think it was very fair. I consider those people to belong to the definition of "humanity" Again, just to highlight to uselessness of the word in political discussions (except for drinking games). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 January 24, 2012 QuoteTry re-reading what I wrote. as you clearly know, that's not NEARLY as fun ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
