state of Oregon considers releasing names of gun owners!

[jshiloh 0]

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Well, it's a report from PBS, which has a known anti-gun slant.
It's quoting an ATF agent. And the ATF has been proven to "massage" the facts to attack gun owners and their rights.

Actually, I personally know 3 ATF agents, all of whom have stated on numerous occasions that they believe every adult American (excluding convicted felons) should own at least 1 firearm.

I don't believe in banning guns, and strongly support gun owner rights (especially since I am one). But I always have to laugh when someone chooses to blatantly ignore facts simply due to their own preconceived (and often incorrect) bias against the source.

Think about this for a moment...if the article was truly based entirely on an anti-gun position, then it would have "slanted" the numbers in the opposite direction. A conclusion that a majority of criminals obtain their guns via theft from legal gun owners SUPPORTS a position of stronger gun regulation & more red tape for gun purchases. Keep guns out of the legal market, you keep them out of the illegal market because criminals wouldn't have anyone to steal them from. The article's statements contradict that position.

[dannydan 5]

JT, why do you care about the stat or even the source? I'm not on the prowel, i'm not trying to attack or offend. I would just like to know why this matters within the context of the original post....

[dannydan 5]

hmmm... not disagreeing at all Shiloh. There are those that hear both sides and still can't see the forsest for the trees!

[kallend 2,027]

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Imagine if you will, Johnny Scumbucket notices you have a fairly good arsenal and decides to liberate you of your weapons to augment his criminal enterprise. He comes for a snatch-and-grab and is met by the lawful owner/resident pointing the business end of one of his toys.

Unfortunately, you can't be home 100% of the time. Most guns used by criminals are stolen from legal gun owners..

A widely held but incorrect MYTH

Well, it's a report from PBS, which has a known anti-gun slant.
It's quoting an ATF agent. And the ATF has been proven to "massage" the facts to attack gun owners and their rights.

You can't refute it so you resort to shooting the messenger.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Imagine if you will, Johnny Scumbucket notices you have a fairly good arsenal and decides to liberate you of your weapons to augment his criminal enterprise. He comes for a snatch-and-grab and is met by the lawful owner/resident pointing the business end of one of his toys.

Unfortunately, you can't be home 100% of the time. Most guns used by criminals are stolen from legal gun owners..

A widely held but incorrect MYTH

Well, it's a report from PBS, which has a known anti-gun slant.
It's quoting an ATF agent. And the ATF has been proven to "massage" the facts to attack gun owners and their rights.

You can't refute it so you resort to shooting the messenger.

10 of 10

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Imagine if you will, Johnny Scumbucket notices you have a fairly good arsenal and decides to liberate you of your weapons to augment his criminal enterprise. He comes for a snatch-and-grab and is met by the lawful owner/resident pointing the business end of one of his toys.

Unfortunately, you can't be home 100% of the time. Most guns used by criminals are stolen from legal gun owners..

A widely held but incorrect MYTH

Well, it's a report from PBS, which has a known anti-gun slant.
It's quoting an ATF agent. And the ATF has been proven to "massage" the facts to attack gun owners and their rights.

You can't refute it so you resort to shooting the messenger.

I am not really trying to refute it. I don't really know where the criminals get their guns.

But to believe the ATF on anything of this sort is foolish. The "Gunwalker/Fast and Furious" debacle is just the most recent of their attempts to restrict gun dealers and owners by manufacturing a problem. Google "ATF abuses" for a boatload of horror stories.

In the linked story, the ATF spokesman is implying that "bad gun dealers" are the problem. Which would logically lead to more restrictions and oversight of dealers. Which would result in less dealers.
That is exactly what happened in the mid-90's. The fees and requirements for dealers was tightened severely. A lot of people who had FFLs for their own purposes got rid of them.
If a lot of the dealers are closed down, it gets harder and more expensive to buy a gun. Voila, gun control.

Didn't you (overall you) have an issue with the ATF refusing to follow their own rules with regards to model rockets and the engines?
Didn't the modelers have to go to court to stop the ATF abuses of power?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DaVinci 0]

From your source:

"But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one....." So ONE person makes your argument?

Keep reading, it gets better.

"Wachtel (THE ONE GUY) says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales."

BTW, you do know that a straw purchase is illegal right?

"The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers"

Look, that is also *illegal*.

And "The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs"

Huh, *stolen*.

"Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts."

But wait, there is more!!!!

"Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun"

And still ILLEGAL, BTW.

So... Lets use your claim and your source:

1. Straw purchase.... ILLEGAL ALREADY
2. Illegal transaction from an FFL..... ILLEGAL ALREADY
3. Stolen.... ILLEGAL ALREADY.

So you are raging against things that are already illegal and the crooks don't seem to be stopped.... So your 'solution' is to make it MORE ILLEGAL??????

No, your solution is to trample on the MAJORITY's rights to "fix" a problem that is statistically small in the first place (Chance of gun death is 1/32000)

Yet you bitched about the ATF looking into regulating toy rockets?

[DaVinci 0]

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Easy, DaVinci should check his facts before posting.

And you should check your irrational fear of an inanimate object.

[rushmc 23]

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Easy, DaVinci should check his facts before posting.

And you should check your irrational fear of an inanimate object.

He is not afraid of it if HE owns and has it

And he thinks only those like minded individuals are smart and safe enough to own them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

"legally licensed but corrupt at-home dealers"

Those would be the ones that the ATF *shut down* during Clinton's presidency, right? I'm wondering how they sell all those guns under the table when all transactions in and out have to be logged in their bound book.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DaVinci 0]

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"legally licensed but corrupt at-home dealers"

Those would be the ones that the ATF *shut down* during Clinton's presidency, right? I'm wondering how they sell all those guns under the table when all transactions in and out have to be logged in their bound book.

Well, the anti's never have really cared for facts.