ikebonamin 0 #1 August 11, 2006 Inspired on the previous post! What do you all think? From pd 210 to Safire 160... 44 jumps! :) ike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #2 August 11, 2006 If you have to ask - yes. A wiser progression might be: PD210 Pilot 188 Silhouette 170 Safire 160 done over about 200 jumps, so you can put 50 jumps on each size canopy. 50 jumps is a good # of jumps per size; it lets you learn a bit about flying each one before going to the next smaller one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikebonamin 0 #3 August 11, 2006 That´s a very wise way to do it... So, the answer is: nope! :) right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #4 August 11, 2006 >So, the answer is: nope! :) right? I wouldn't do it and I would recommend new jumpers don't downsize that fast. But everyone has to make their own decisions in this sport, and live with the consequences (as we see every day in Incidents.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #5 August 11, 2006 QuoteThat´s a very wise way to do it... So, the answer is: nope! :) right? Yes, he is saying the answer is nope!My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 August 12, 2006 Quote done over about 200 jumps, so you can put 50 jumps on each size canopy. 50 jumps is a good # of jumps per size; it lets you learn a bit about flying each one before going to the next smaller one. 200 jumps to get to the high normal for people's first purchased canopy? Is this driven by 1.1, or the 160 part? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #7 August 12, 2006 QuoteQuote done over about 200 jumps, so you can put 50 jumps on each size canopy. 50 jumps is a good # of jumps per size; it lets you learn a bit about flying each one before going to the next smaller one. 200 jumps to get to the high normal for people's first purchased canopy? Is this driven by 1.1, or the 160 part? Bill's POV is towards the conservative, safety first, end of the spectrum. It's good advice.If you're willing to accept a higher level of risk, 1.1 on a Safire2 160 is not unreasonable at 45 jumps."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 August 12, 2006 The 1.1 on a Safire 158 is'nt near as bad as the 1.25 on the Reserve is. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #9 August 12, 2006 Will probably still be OK at that wing loading. One guy has 250 Jumps and had good landings loading the R-Max at 1.4 and the other has 4300 jumps and loaded a 118 R-max @ 1.8 and says... "Bottom line, even a heavily-loaded R-Max will set you down softly.""Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #10 August 12, 2006 Any skipping of sizes during a downsize is dangerous, whether you will be loaded .6:1 or 2:1. You should try each size along the way to make sure you are comfortable every step of the way. There's no hurry and it's not a race. Last I heard, there wasn't an award given for the guy who plows himself in first. Smaller, lighter people have a more difficult time with progression because to be loaded 1.1:1, they have to be on really small canopies. While this is a "conservative" wing loading, the size is not. If progressing one step at a time means you can't jump on windy days...oh well! Take that down-time to ask questions, listen, and watch. It's amazing what we actually hear when our ears are open. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #11 August 12, 2006 I am learning the hard way that downsizing is a challenge. I went from a 230 after 30 jumps to a Sabre2 190. Wing loading changed from 1.04 to 1.26, and in the last ten (no wind) landings I have stood up 2 of them. I would have been better off these last 15 jumps to have stayed with the larger canopy and worked on canopy control rather than fighting the higher descent rate and landing speeds of the smaller chute. The outside of my rig is always dirty from my PLF's, and my pride is taking a whack too. Not to mention the fact that is can be harmful to the body to always pound in the landing... Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #12 August 12, 2006 Geez, a 1.26 at 45 jumps in CO with a 5,000 field elevation? No wonder you are having problems. What made you think this was a good idea in the first place?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #13 August 12, 2006 QuoteI am learning the hard way that downsizing is a challenge. I went from a 230 after 30 jumps to a Sabre2 190. Wing loading changed from 1.04 to 1.26, and in the last ten (no wind) landings I have stood up 2 of them. I would have been better off these last 15 jumps to have stayed with the larger canopy and worked on canopy control rather than fighting the higher descent rate and landing speeds of the smaller chute. The outside of my rig is always dirty from my PLF's, and my pride is taking a whack too. Not to mention the fact that is can be harmful to the body to always pound in the landing... My opinions/experiences in jumping at Longmont: - At 500 jumps I was jumping a square at 1.1 WL. A nice thing about the 1.1 at 5000' is that you can either start the flare early and land on a dime with no surf, (handy for that unpredictable balloon spot that put me in downtown Longmont). Or you can postpone the flare a bit and get a little surfing in. - At about 600 jumps I went to an elliptical at 1.2 WL. It took about 60 jumps just to get really comfortable and do consistent standups. At that loading, every landing involved some surfing unless there was wind in excess of 15mph. - In CO there is a hell of a difference in the way a canopy flies in the winter vs the way it flies in July. My opinion is that midwinter is the time to downsize so you can gradually get used to the increase in speed as the climbing temperatures make the canopy much faster in July. My Samurai with 1.35 WL seems plenty sporty in July. In January it seems as docile as a student canopy."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #14 August 12, 2006 QuoteNot to mention the fact that is can be harmful to the body to always pound in the landing... Yeah, it can be. Very. Upsize now before you hurt yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #15 August 13, 2006 I jumped at the chance to buy a local, relatively new rig at a good price that came availabe, mainly to get out from under the $55 per jump rental. I guess I don't look like I weigh 205, so the advice I got from the instructors and riggers at the DZ was based on the fact that they might have thought my loading on the smaller 'chute was less than it is. I am finally getting a handle on it after 17 jumps on this rig. Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #16 August 13, 2006 QuoteI jumped at the chance to buy a local, relatively new rig at a good price that came availabe, mainly to get out from under the $55 per jump rental. I guess I don't look like I weigh 205, so the advice I got from the instructors and riggers at the DZ was based on the fact that they might have thought my loading on the smaller 'chute was less than it is. I am finally getting a handle on it after 17 jumps on this rig. I had that same problem - I was advised to buy smaller than I was comfortable with based on the fact that people thought I weighed less than I do - this is a sport where being very specific and direct about your weight is important. All that said, knowing what you know now, if you're not comfortable on that rig, sell it! A gear purchase is not an irreversible action. There's PLENTY of stuff on the used market (and in fact, I might be listing a Spectre 230 before too long); there's no need for you to be using something that is beyond your skill/comfort/safety level at this point. Since you just bought your gear, it'll almost certainly have held its value."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 August 13, 2006 QuoteOne guy has 250 Jumps and had good landings loading the R-Max at 1.4 ONE good landing. Just because it can be landed does not make it the right WL for a last canopy. Quotethe other has 4300 jumps and loaded a 118 R-max @ 1.8 and says... "Bottom line, even a heavily-loaded R-Max will set you down softly." 4300 jumps. That guy might be able to land something like that pretty well. That does not mean a guy with 100 jumps and has neer jumped a 7 cell would. Just because it CAN be done, does not mean it should be done."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #18 August 13, 2006 You aren't progressing by downsizing too quickly, you are actually regressing. You are losing confidence, hurting yourself, and the stress of the situation is preventing you from learning to fly your canopy. If you are having a hard time getting a good flare from the main you're jumping and the descent feels fast, just wait until you find yourself under that reserve. Maybe you should look for more appropriate gear that will suit your needs now, not where you or someone else thinks you'll be in another 100-200 jumps. You should have no problem finding buyers for the gear you have (popular models & sizes) for the same you paid for it. Of course, if you keep using it and biffing it in, it won't be worth much... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #19 August 13, 2006 QuoteYou aren't progressing by downsizing too quickly, you are actually regressing. You are losing confidence, hurting yourself, and the stress of the situation is preventing you from learning to fly your canopy. Just thought that bore repeating!! --& from someone who broke a couple of bones during a conservative downsizing progression on the intermediate size - I can tell you I am very happy I didn't go directly to the "right" size or more would have been broken... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #20 August 14, 2006 To survive in skydiving you have to survive each and every jump. To take a canopy up that is too highly loaded for your level of skill, thinking "I'll have good landings most of the time" is crap. You have to have survivable landings everytime. Sorry if I burst your bubble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikebonamin 0 #21 August 14, 2006 I would like to thank you all for these inputs. I´ll be upsizing for the next 50 or 100 jumps. It should be fun and not stressful. ike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #22 August 14, 2006 >200 jumps to get to the high normal for people's first purchased >canopy? Is this driven by 1.1, or the 160 part? Driven by the time it really takes to learn to fly a canopy. You can't do it in 5 or 10 jumps. You can usually do it in 50 jumps. Unfortunately, many people put just enough jumps on any one sized canopy to get to the point where they can land it standing up 2 out of 3 times and call it good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #23 August 15, 2006 Thank you Reginald, Ryoder,Skybytch, NW Flyer, Cloudi, Orange1!! Your advice and insights are well taken - I put that post up to get some objective opinions from those of you out there who have the experience to help out. I really was beginning to think that I am just doomed to bad landings forever until it dawned on me that the wing loading might be a factor. Thanks again for the good help- Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #24 August 16, 2006 Anytime. I'll bet many of the really experienced skydivers continue to seek advice from people whose opinions they respect. I know I do, but then again, I'm not all that experienced... If you ever get to the point where you aren't learning and think you have all the answers, step away from the sport and re-evaluate (or hope that people care enough about you to smack some sense into you). Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
