The biggest Terrorist threat to the USA

[Skyrad 0]

Is not from Islamist terrorists but from the estimated 300,000 home grown Subversives and terrorists claiming to be 'Sovereign citizens' and its a treat that is growing by the day across all states.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/sovereign-citizens-radicals-next-door-28558482.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[lawrocket 3]

Indeed. We can compare the death tolls. Oh. Ummm, maybe that doesn't work.

It's a minimal threat at this point. What destroyed the militia movement in the 1990s? Yep. Tim McVeigh. All it took was one asshole and the whole movement disintegrated because it turned out that terrorism wasn't what the vast majority of the militia movement wanted anything to do with. Guilt by association meant people didn't want to be associated.

I don't think that these "sovereign citizen" types should be discounted. But calling them the "biggest" threats is a really really tough sell.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,077]

>It's a minimal threat at this point. What destroyed the militia movement in the
>1990s? Yep. Tim McVeigh.

Let's hope it doesn't take another one this time.

[mnealtx 0]

Since I can't access streaming video, is this another repeat of SPLC's bullshit from the other thread, or Napolitano calling vets a threat again?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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'Sovereign citizens'

From the FBI:

"They could be dismissed as a nuisance, a loose network of individuals living in the United States who call themselves “sovereign citizens” and believe that federal, state, and local governments operate illegally. Some of their actions, although quirky, are not crimes. The offenses they do commit seem minor: They do not pay their taxes and regularly create false license plates, driver’s licenses, and even currency..."

OMG! There are people who don't want to pay their taxes! We're all going to die! Run for your lives!

[lawrocket 3]

Let's hope that terrorists don't define the militia movement any more than terrorists define Islam.

You are inferring that you want to see these movements ended. I no more want to see these movements squelched than I want to see Islam squelched. Do you agree, Bill?

Still - as much as it is unfair, I understand that there ar elinks between terrorism and militias that cannot be ignored any more than the links between Islam and terrorism. In that sense it is perhaps up to these movemements to police their own.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Skyrad 0]

300,000 Us Citizens who deny the existence or legality of the USA, that is a bigger threat to your country than people fighting the USA in their own region. Terrorists can kill a few people (even 9/11 was hardly significant in terms of numbers when say compared to road deaths year on year in the USA) but the gradual breakdown of society is a far greater threat to the USA.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

A sincere question... What is the point of the militias? (I'm not associating militias with SP just responding to your post).

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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'Sovereign citizens'

From the FBI:

"They could be dismissed as a nuisance, a loose network of individuals living in the United States who call themselves “sovereign citizens” and believe that federal, state, and local governments operate illegally. Some of their actions, although quirky, are not crimes. The offenses they do commit seem minor: They do not pay their taxes and regularly create false license plates, driver’s licenses, and even currency..."

OMG! There are people who don't want to pay their taxes! We're all going to die! Run for your lives!

I doubt that you'll find it funny if the USA ends up in the situation the Greece is now in. The USA is on a slippery slope and this sort of action is far more damaging to your country than killing dozens, hundreds or even three thousand people.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[lawrocket 3]

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300,000 Us Citizens who deny the existence or legality of the USA, that is a bigger threat to your country than people fighting the USA in their own region.

What about those fighting the US from their own region?

US citizens who deny the existence or legality of the USA are different from those who believe that the USA and Americans should be killed.

There are plenty of people who do not believe in God. It does not follow that they will seek to destroy all believers in God. That's my point.

You've got a group of people who want to be left alone and believe that government is oppressive. For this reason alone they are considered to be threats? Seriously - it's yet another example of bigotry by ignorant stereotype.

I have ZERO problem with people who want to be left alone so long as they leave me alone, too.

What is the point of the militia movement? I haven't the slightest. I don't know what the point ot end-goal of the whole Sovereign Citizen movement is. I do know I've never seen or met one that I know of. IF there are 300k of them then they have a tendency not to bother anybody.

Compare to, say, OWS. Who is a bigger threat? THose who stick to themselves and want to be left alone and want to leave everyone else alone I just don't find to be much of a threat. Those who refuse to leave people alone and make it their very point to bother people?

Check out the damage caused by OWS versus the damage caused by self-proclaimed Sovereign Citizens. And yet there is some political hay to be made.

Come on. Look at EVIDENCE. Yeah, MCVeigh blew up the Murrah building and killed and injured hundreds. Can't be denied. Can't be avoided. Gotta suck it up and see that there is a threat.

Look at Islam. Blew up the Trade Center. Then less than a decade later took both of them down and killed thousands, injuring thousands more.

I view you like I view most Muslims - not at all represented by the assholes out there killing and killing. I would think that someone like you - who is so frequently on the losing end of hateful stereotype - would understand that what is being done to other very largely peaceable people is what has been done to you.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Coreece 190]

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I doubt that you'll find it funny if the USA ends up in the situation the Greece is now in. The USA is on a slippery slope and this sort of action is far more damaging to your country than killing dozens, hundreds or even three thousand people.

You sound like a good candidate for becoming a paranoid sovereign citizen or a militiaman...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[lawrocket 3]

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I doubt that you'll find it funny if the USA ends up in the situation the Greece is now in.

The Greek situation is a problem raised by people who want the government to be responsible. Riots out there aren't being raised by people who think the government is ceding too much but are angry that the government is weakened and broke and will have to to less than it has done.

I view Greece as an example of the risk of expansive government and the risk of dependence as opposed to the risks of those who think the government is too large and oppressive.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Skyrad 0]

It seems that we're talking at cross purposes and that may well be my fault as I titled the thread the biggest Terrorist threat to the USA. More correctly I should have omitted the word terrorist from the title.
I stand by the point that these so called Sovereign citizens are a bigger threat to the USA than Islamist (Or any other kind) of terrorists though. 9/11 was a one off in terms of terrorist attacks killing around 3000 people. Sovereign citizens however are destroying the very fabric of your society in their refusal of adhering to the laws of the land, the failure to pay their taxes and the subversion of the legal government of the USA in terms of which is more dangerous to the USA clearly its not Islamist terrorists.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JohnRich 4]

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It seems that we're talking at cross purposes and that may well be my fault as I titled the thread the biggest Terrorist threat to the USA. More correctly I should have omitted the word terrorist from the title.

So take it out of the title when you post new messages, as I have done above, and it will fade away as the discussion continues.

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I stand by the point that these so called Sovereign citizens are a bigger threat to the USA than Islamist (Or any other kind) of terrorists though. Sovereign citizens however are destroying the very fabric of your society in their refusal of adhering to the laws of the land, the failure to pay their taxes and the subversion of the legal government of the USA in terms of which is more dangerous to the USA clearly its not Islamist terrorists.

As government taxes get higher and higher, and government intrusions become ever greater, then it's natural for more and more people to protest with civil disobedience. That's been the American way since the Boston Tea Party, and it's enshrined in our Constitution. The problem I have is that you seem to be blaming the civil disobedients for all the nation's problems, when in fact it is the government that is to blame. If the government would do what the citizens want, such as being more frugal with our money and cease the intrusions into our lives, then this would be a non-issue. The root of the problem is the government, not the protestors.

Your position seems to be like blaming the Jews for the extermination camps.

[Marinus 0]

300.000 sounds like a lot, but in the end it's only about 0,1% of the US population. And they don't sound like terrorists either, they sound like conservatives who want a free ride and have some demands too, albeit somewhat vague demands. Or in other words: they sound like the right-wing branch of the OWS movement.

I recommend some pre-emptive pepper-spraying.

[jclalor 12]

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'Sovereign citizens'

From the FBI:

"They could be dismissed as a nuisance, a loose network of individuals living in the United States who call themselves “sovereign citizens” and believe that federal, state, and local governments operate illegally. Some of their actions, although quirky, are not crimes. The offenses they do commit seem minor: They do not pay their taxes and regularly create false license plates, driver’s licenses, and even currency..."

OMG! There are people who don't want to pay their taxes! We're all going to die! Run for your lives!

You left out just a little bit. tricky tricky tricky.

They could be dismissed as a nuisance, a loose network of individuals living in the United States who call themselves “sovereign citizens” and believe that federal, state, and local governments operate illegally. Some of their actions, although quirky, are not crimes. The offenses they do commit seem minor: They do not pay their taxes and regularly create false license plates, driver’s licenses, and even
currency.

However, a closer look at sovereign citizens’ more severe crimes, from financial scams to impersonating or threatening law enforcement officials, gives reason for concern. If someone challenges (e.g., a standard traffic stop for false license plates) their ideology, the behavior of these sovereign-citizen extremists quickly can escalate to violence. Since 2000, lone-offender sovereign-citizen extremists have killed six law enforcement officers. In 2010, two Arkansas police officers stopped sovereign-citizen extremists Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joseph during a routine traffic stop on Interstate 40. Joseph Kane jumped out of the vehicle and opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle, killing both officers.

The sovereign-citizen threat likely will grow as the nationwide movement is fueled by the Internet, the economic downturn, and seminars held across the country that spread their ideology and show people how they can tap into funds and eliminate debt through fraudulent methods. As sovereign citizens’ numbers grow, so do the chances of contact with law enforcement and, thus, the risks that incidents will end in violence. Law enforcement and judicial officials must understand the sovereign-citizen movement, be able to identify indicators, and know how to protect themselves from the group’s threatening tactics.

Ideology and Motivation

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens

[lawrocket 3]

In that sense I can see your point. However, depending on your perspective there isn't anything that doesn't affect the fabric of US society. I think that OWS is a massive threat due to it's agenda of corporate support (think about it - they had to be getting their money from someone or something). They demonstraye a profound disdain for private property and private rights, period. Privacy.

But calling OWS a threat is one thing. I think OWS is a symptom of what is goong on. I think the Sovereign movement is a symptom. Both show displeaure with the status quo. One wants to be left alone and the other wants to pester others. Yes, the "Sovereign" crowd also wants a bit of a free ride - I'll wear that.

But of corse, the present day American way is a free-ride. Moses said pick up your shovels, load your camels, mount your asses, I'll lead you to the promised land. Then FDR said "drop your shovels, sit on you asses, light up a Camel, this is the promised land."Now it's, "Dig me a hole or else you're all asses, tax Camels, and give me a promised land."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jclalor 12]

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There are people who don't want to pay their taxes! We're all going to die! Run for your lives!

[JohnRich 4]

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You left out just a little bit. tricky tricky tricky.

However, a closer look at sovereign citizens’ more severe crimes, from financial scams to impersonating or threatening law enforcement officials, gives reason for concern...

Sure, a few of them go too far to ignore, and then they deserve prosecution. That's true of any group of people.

A few skydivers have been known to smuggle illegal drugs. However, that does not mean that the United States Parachute Association should be put on the DEA's watch list as a drug-smuggling gang.

Let's be careful about taking the actions of a few extremists, and using that to characterize an entire movement.

[kallend 2,107]

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You left out just a little bit. tricky tricky tricky.

However, a closer look at sovereign citizens’ more severe crimes, from financial scams to impersonating or threatening law enforcement officials, gives reason for concern...

Sure, a few of them go too far to ignore, and then they deserve prosecution. That's true of any group of people.

A few skydivers have been known to smuggle illegal drugs. However, that does not mean that the United States Parachute Association should be put on the DEA's watch list as a drug-smuggling gang.

Let's be careful about taking the actions of a few extremists, and using that to characterize an entire movement.

If USPA espoused a philosophy of ignoring federal law (the FARs) then, YES, it should be considered subversive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,077]

>However, that does not mean that the United States Parachute Association should
>be put on the DEA's watch list as a drug-smuggling gang.

If they published instructions on how to smuggle drugs in jump planes on their website - yes, they should be.

[JohnRich 4]

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If USPA espoused a philosophy of ignoring federal law (the FARs) then, YES, it should be considered subversive.

So when you complain against the war in Iraq, airport security, the Patriot Act, and BATF regulation of rocket motors, then that makes YOU a "subversive"?

Was Rosa Parks a subversive for sitting in the white section on the bus?
Was Martin Luther King a subversive for marching without a permit?
Were the four black college students in Greensboro subversive for sitting at a whites-only lunch counter?
Were the citizens of Lexington and Concord subversives in 1775 for refusing to surrendur their arms?
Was Henry David Thoreau a subversive for not paying his taxes?
Was Mahatma Ghandi a subversive for his "salt march" against the British?

Be careful what you wish for...

I'm thankful that people are brave enought to be "subversive" in protest of unjust laws.

[jclalor 12]

***

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You left out just a little bit. tricky tricky tricky.

However, a closer look at sovereign citizens’ more severe crimes, from financial scams to impersonating or threatening law enforcement officials, gives reason for concern...

Sure, a few of them go too far to ignore, and then they deserve prosecution. That's true of any group of people.

A few skydivers have been known to smuggle illegal drugs. However, that does not mean that the United States Parachute Association should be put on the DEA's watch list as a drug-smuggling gang.

Let's be careful about taking the actions of a few extremists, and using that to characterize an entire movement.

***

Your post was deliberatley misleading, your attempt to use the FBI source to show the group harmless was a farce. If your oppinion is that the the group is harmless, that's one thing, intentionally posting mis-information is the sign of a man that does not believe in his convictions.

How much other bullshit have you posted?

Characterizing a whole movement as extremist because they dont pay taxes of any sort, do not recognize the government or any law enforcment agency, is not going too far out on a limb.

You remind of a qoute from my favorite movie, Dr. Strangelove;

"I think I'd like to hold off judgment on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in...I don't think it's quite fair to condemn the whole program because of a single slip up, sir." General Buck Turgidson

[jclalor 12]

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If USPA espoused a philosophy of ignoring federal law (the FARs) then, YES, it should be considered subversive.

So when you complain, against the war in Iraq, airport security and the Patriot Act, then that makes YOU a "subversive"?

Do you really not see a diference?

[JohnRich 4]

Feel free to send out hordes of federal agents to create more Ruby Ridge's and Waco's, in order to round up these heinous miscreants who flaunt the law by printing their own license plates. How dare they! They must be taught a lesson!

My way of handling it would be to just give them a traffic ticket when caught on the public roads.

To each his own.

Even the FBI recognizes that the large majority of them are harmless, so they side with my view on this.