Just how many rotten apples can there be?

[Skyrad 0]

Its amazing just how many screw ups the US have had in Afghanistan in the last few months, from US marines flaunting trophy pictures and videos of dead Afghans which found their way into the media, Ditto with urinating on corpse of Afghans, posing with Nazi symbols. Burning Qurans and now murdering civilians including women and children in their homes. Always the same comments about 'just a few bad apples'. Of course not every US service person is a bad apple but the frequency of fuck ups makes me wonder if the selection process for the US military and training they receive is fit for purpose.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-held-afghan-shooting-spree-074109101.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

Those of us old enough to have attained an age of reason during the Vietnam War know that this is the kind of cumulative shit that makes the concept of "winning the hearts and minds of the (local) people" a cruel hoax. Once again, we're destroying the hamlets in order to save them.

(Warning- Graphic & possibly NSFW)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/My_Lai_massacre.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47842000/jpg/_47842123_nickutphotograph466.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2408/1530967884_22419eadbd_z.jpg?zz=1

[Gravitymaster 0]

I wonder what you would say if hoards of Christians went on a murderous killing spree because someone burned a Bible?

[texascrw 1]

Kind of reminds you of Ireland, without the Black and Decker drills, of course. Are you sure these are US troops, and not an Irish unit? Since you have made it your mission to point out every mistake our troops make, I have no doubt you were doing the same thing during "the troubles" in Ireland, when your fellow citizens were running wild torturing and blowing up each other up. Which was much more fun than having to face the British Army, and having your ass handed to you on a platter. But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless. After you have worked to bring the criminals in your country to justice, then you can devote your time to fixing the rest of the world. Just because things have calmed down over there doesn't mean that the people that murdered, tortured and planted car bombs get off scott free. They need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They were nothing more than common criminals and terrorists. When you clean up your own backyard, then come talk to us about helping with ours.

[christelsabine 1]

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But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless.

But, that's just what's this thread about, right? I think, that's why skyrad posted it

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.... and blowing each other up ....

Where is the correlation with actual incident in Afghanistan?


@ skyrad: You're Irish? Since when?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 2,106]

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Kind of reminds you of Ireland, without the Black and Decker drills, of course. Are you sure these are US troops, and not an Irish unit? Since you have made it your mission to point out every mistake our troops make, I have no doubt you were doing the same thing during "the troubles" in Ireland, when your fellow citizens were running wild torturing and blowing up each other up. Which was much more fun than having to face the British Army, and having your ass handed to you on a platter. But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless. After you have worked to bring the criminals in your country to justice, then you can devote your time to fixing the rest of the world. Just because things have calmed down over there doesn't mean that the people that murdered, tortured and planted car bombs get off scott free. They need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They were nothing more than common criminals and terrorists. When you clean up your own backyard, then come talk to us about helping with ours.

Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[devildog 0]

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Kind of reminds you of Ireland, without the Black and Decker drills, of course. Are you sure these are US troops, and not an Irish unit? Since you have made it your mission to point out every mistake our troops make, I have no doubt you were doing the same thing during "the troubles" in Ireland, when your fellow citizens were running wild torturing and blowing up each other up. Which was much more fun than having to face the British Army, and having your ass handed to you on a platter. But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless. After you have worked to bring the criminals in your country to justice, then you can devote your time to fixing the rest of the world. Just because things have calmed down over there doesn't mean that the people that murdered, tortured and planted car bombs get off scott free. They need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They were nothing more than common criminals and terrorists. When you clean up your own backyard, then come talk to us about helping with ours.

Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

I imagine its more of a "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from the other person's eye"

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[lawrocket 3]

If two wrongs don't make a right then try three.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

Sorta like blaming Bush for all of Obama's failures?

[kallend 2,106]

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Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

Sorta like blaming Bush for all of Obama's failures?

No. More like CDIF.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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Kind of reminds you of Ireland, without the Black and Decker drills, of course. Are you sure these are US troops, and not an Irish unit? Since you have made it your mission to point out every mistake our troops make, I have no doubt you were doing the same thing during "the troubles" in Ireland, when your fellow citizens were running wild torturing and blowing up each other up. Which was much more fun than having to face the British Army, and having your ass handed to you on a platter. But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless. After you have worked to bring the criminals in your country to justice, then you can devote your time to fixing the rest of the world. Just because things have calmed down over there doesn't mean that the people that murdered, tortured and planted car bombs get off scott free. They need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They were nothing more than common criminals and terrorists. When you clean up your own backyard, then come talk to us about helping with ours.

Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

I imagine its more of a "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from the other person's eye"

Not clear to me that murdering civilians is a "speck". YMMV.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

Sorta like blaming Bush for all of Obama's failures?

No. More like CDIF.

Or trying to build yourself up by tearing others down. Got it.

[Skyrad 0]

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Kind of reminds you of Ireland, without the Black and Decker drills, of course. Are you sure these are US troops, and not an Irish unit? Since you have made it your mission to point out every mistake our troops make, I have no doubt you were doing the same thing during "the troubles" in Ireland, when your fellow citizens were running wild torturing and blowing up each other up. Which was much more fun than having to face the British Army, and having your ass handed to you on a platter. But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless. After you have worked to bring the criminals in your country to justice, then you can devote your time to fixing the rest of the world. Just because things have calmed down over there doesn't mean that the people that murdered, tortured and planted car bombs get off scott free. They need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They were nothing more than common criminals and terrorists. When you clean up your own backyard, then come talk to us about helping with ours.

Wow, thats a pretty funny post . Anyway, your attitude just goes to highlight a serious problem with regard to what appears to be a common american attitude, that being one in which the military are sen as some sort of holy cow which can not be subjected to anything other than facile hero worship. Thankfully the US military itself has a much more enlightened attitude and is pretty good at adapting and learning from its mistakes. Its fair to ask if the recruitment and selection process is working in light of the series of serious crimes committed by serving personnel. It is also in the best interests of the US forces to ask questions of the training that the personnel are currently receiving pre and post deployment to enable them to function in such high stress environments.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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But that is the mark of a true coward, target the weak and helpless.

But, that's just what's this thread about, right? I think, that's why skyrad posted it

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.... and blowing each other up ....

Where is the correlation with actual incident in Afghanistan?


@ skyrad: You're Irish? Since when?

I'm not but they let all sorts live in Ireland these days

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 2,106]

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Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

Sorta like blaming Bush for all of Obama's failures?

No. More like CDIF.

Or trying to build yourself up by tearing others down. Got it.

So you condone murder of civilians. Got it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

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Is that what your mother taught you, that you can use someone else's bad behavior as an excuse for your own bad behavior?

Sorta like blaming Bush for all of Obama's failures?

No. More like CDIF.

Or trying to build yourself up by tearing others down. Got it.

So you condone murder of civilians. Got it.

As I said....

[matthewcline 0]

To your question about recruiting and training. The standards HAVE been lowered because too many that could not meet them complained to their Senator or Representative.

Add the lack of leadership in the civilian appointees, coupled with ROE's that allow the enemy to draw first blood in most cases, and yes, people will have had enough.

Now, when we actually have decent facts about the incident that sparked your thread, we may learn what happened, we may learn there was a prior incident that sparked this. We may learn that there was an enemy who was engaged and fled into the civilians homes.

One lesson, not learned by the two Administrations, but shown to Ghangis and the former Soviet Union, you can not educate to defeat their mind set, and the world won't let you eradicate it.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kallend 2,106]

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To your question about recruiting and training. The standards HAVE been lowered because too many that could not meet them complained to their Senator or Representative.

The Army lowered its recruiting standards sometime around 2005-6 because it couldn't find enough people who wanted to join at the height of the Iraq conflict. Physical fitness, criminal record, and educational standards were lowered.

www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-10-09-army-recruiting_x.htm

The Bush recession, and the end of Bush's Iraq war have allowed the standards to be raised again.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/18/AR2009041801992.html?hpid=topnews?xid=rss-page

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AndyBoyd 0]

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Those of us old enough to have attained an age of reason during the Vietnam War know that this is the kind of cumulative shit that makes the concept of "winning the hearts and minds of the (local) people" a cruel hoax. Once again, we're destroying the hamlets in order to save them.

(Warning- Graphic & possibly NSFW)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/My_Lai_massacre.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47842000/jpg/_47842123_nickutphotograph466.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2408/1530967884_22419eadbd_z.jpg?zz=1

This was my exact thought after hearing about this. It's My Lai all over again. When the mission has failed, and our troops have become so angry and feel so hopeless that they turn on the very people we are trying to help, it's time to come home. We can do no more good in that country. We are just piling misery on top of misery.

Before someone jumps on me, of course I support and respect our troops. I am tired of seeing them come home in boxes over a lost cause. It breaks my heart. And incidents like this do as well. I just want our guys and girls over there to come home safely. It's time.

[texascrw 1]

Thanks, glad you found it amusing. And no, it was not directed so much at you, although you seem to be making a career on this subject, but because of the country you had posted, Ireland. Where so much wrong was done to a lot of the wrong people, innocent civilians. I had friends that served in the British Army there, and they showed much more restraint towards the terrorists, on both sides of the Irish problem, than I would have. As far as seeing the American military as a 'sacred cow', beyond reproach, I don't. If you cross the line, you need to be held accountable. There were times that I saw the anger and frustration of my troopers, but I didn't condone any out of line behaviour. The first respondibility of any officer, is control of your troops. Otherwise, you don't have an effective military unit, you have a mob. Most troops are young, and tend to make rash decisions based on emotion, that is part of being young. As an officer it is your responsibility to control those rash impulses, teach them and lead by example. I hope the military will weed out the ones that stepped over the line, finish up the war, and bring our boys home. And they need to take a hard look at the officers that were leading any of the ones that did step over the line. Cheers!

[Skyrad 0]

Its interesting that you say 'I had friends that served in the British Army there, and they showed much more restraint towards the terrorists, on both sides of the Irish problem, than I would have.'

Why do you think that is?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[texascrw 1]

You missed the point. Devildog(thank you very much), pretty much summed it up. And no, that is not what my mother taught me. If you look at post no. 20, you will see my thoughts on troops getting out of line.

[Andy9o8 2]

So because Brit troops committed atrocities in the 70s that disqualifies Skyrad from criticizing US troops in 2012? What a childish approach to the debate. If you're not ready for the Bigs, stay off the sandlot. You two are embarrassing yourselves.

[texascrw 1]

When I said less restraint, I don't mean that I would have turned my troops out to ransack the city. I would have still played by the rules, but I guess what I mean is, I would have been much more frustrated and vocal than they were. Most of the Brits I have known, seem to be much more restrained than Americans. Accoridng to them, the SAS knew who, and where, every one of the thugs lived. But because of political, and who knows what other reasons, they were not allowed to make a mass sweep and round them up. That would have been very hard to live with every time one of my troopers got hit by a sniper, or injured by a random car bomb on the street. Reducing the number of scumbags on the street, and reducing the odds of harm to everyone, would be a wonderful thing. Knowing it was possible, and then not seeing it done, would be a most frustrating situation.

[Skyrad 0]

The ROE prevented such action for good reason, sure Lynx could have blown the Falls road to pieces but as internment and bloody Sunday taught such actions only lead to massive recruitment for the enemy. Maybe a lesson that some would do well to remember.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca