How is "racist" defined?

[Airman1270 0]

"Racist" is defined as someone who believes that one race (usually his own) is superior to another. Or am I mistaken?

People who are not racists are frequently accused of harboring unkind racial attitudes by people who are not particularly interested in being convinced that they are mistaken. It is one thing to hate, for example, black people. But what about people who do not hate anyone, but at the same time happen to notice certain trends/habits that happen to be common among certain non-white folks?

Is it "racist" if the delivery driver happens to notice that black customers generally don't tip very well? Or to express disgust at the pants-around-the-thighs "ghetto" types?

If I imitate a white guy it's satire. But if I imitate a black guy some will call it racism. Right now there are people reading this who want to call me a racist simply for posing the question. Why?

The people who are eager to throw this word around, especially in political debate, have an obligation to define the term and explain how a white guy can comment on racial matters without being called a bigot.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[Marinus 0]

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"Racist" is defined as someone who believes that one race (usually his own) is superior to another. Or am I mistaken?

Race is most probably a human construct and not a biological reality, in other words, there's no different races in our species. So if that's the case in a sense racism becomes a meaningless word. What's called racism is really usually an ethnic issue.

[pirana 0]

I don't think commenting or asking questions about racism makes a person a racist. There are differences in groups of people that we have lumped into a category we've tagged as race. No amount of political correctness will make that go away.

Racism to me is when a person treats someone unfairly based on those differences. Sure, "fairly" is a very subjective term, but it is far more accurate than "differently" because there are differences.

Put it this way; if a person is an asshole to everybody, they probably are not racist. If they exhibit a pattern of being nasty and saying nasty things to or about certain specific groups, then they probably are racist, or sexist, or homophobic, or some other -ist or -ic.

Unfortunately, jn tough times, those groups least able to defend themselves become the boogeymen.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[steve1 5]

We all have prejudices that we carry around with us, whether we realize it or not. So, maybe this is something we all need to work on.

I meet people all the time who hate most white people. And then they say they hate racists. I don't get it....

[billvon 2,993]

>Is it "racist" if the delivery driver happens to notice that black customers generally
>don't tip very well?

If his conclusion is "blacks are cheap" then yes.

>Or to express disgust at the pants-around-the-thighs "ghetto" types?

Not if the pants-around-the-thighs are all different races, and he's disgusted by all of them.

>If I imitate a white guy it's satire. But if I imitate a black guy some will call it racism.

Both are comedy. If it's used to denigrate one race it's racism, whether the target is black or white.

[DougH 270]

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>Is it "racist" if the delivery driver happens to notice that black customers generally
>don't tip very well?

If his conclusion is "blacks are cheap" then yes.

What if he concludes that most of his black customers are lousy tippers based on his past experinces.

Is that different from concluding all blacks are cheap?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,993]

>What if he concludes that most of his black customers are lousy tippers.

If he looks at his list of customers, and says "my black customers are lousy tippers more often than my white customers" then that is not racist. If he looks at a new customer and thinks "great, another black guy, he'll be a lousy tipper" then that is racist.

[DougH 270]

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>What if he concludes that most of his black customers are lousy tippers.

If he looks at his list of customers, and says "my black customers are lousy tippers more often than my white customers" then that is not racist. If he looks at a new customer and thinks "great, another black guy, he'll be a lousy tipper" then that is racist.

Or maybe he is just observing a trend? If he treats his new black customer no different than a new or existing white customer is it really racist?

He is still showing up, and I doubt if he got a good tip he would pretend it didn't happen?

I don't think having preconceived notions is racist if you don't act on them.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 2]

Definitions can be difficult, especially with a moving target. Examples are easier to point out. Like this one, for example:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/in-racist-chant-at-n-c-a-a-game-echoes-of-european-hooligans/

[SpeedRacer 1]

The pants sliding down thing is a trend with whites as well as blacks. A non-racist would recognize that.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[jakee 1,493]

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But what about people who do not hate anyone, but at the same time happen to notice certain trends/habits that happen to be common among certain non-white folks?

Do you also notice certain trends/habits that happen to be common among certain white folks? Especially undesireable ones?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,993]

>I don't think having preconceived notions is racist if you don't act on them.

You can be a racist even if you don't act on your beliefs that another race is inferior (say, you are afraid of being sued, or do not want bad publicity.) Since actions are provable and intent is not, generally it's the actions that are considered defining though.

Consider the following statement:

"I wouldn't let any blacks into my bank if I could help it; most of them are criminals, and why should I let criminals into my bank? But the government forces me to, so I guess I gotta." (Or use "puerto rican" or "white" above, same thing.)

Would you consider that person racist?

[wmw999 2,447]

Sometimes it's data. If, however, someone rationalizes the same behavior coming from another group, but not from the "target" group, it might just be racism.

I.e. -- if it's OK for poor-looking white people to be lousy tippers, because they can't afford it, but it's not OK for black people, well, it might be an incomplete evaluation.

Racism is sometimes just a reflection of someone's not being able to identify behaviors as being human, and ascribing them to race instead.

And yeah, it applies to black people, white people, brown people, and flying purple people-eaters.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Airman1270 0]

...Consider the following statement:

"I wouldn't let any blacks into my bank if I could help it; most of them are criminals, and why should I let criminals into my bank? But the government forces me to, so I guess I gotta." (Or use "puerto rican" or "white" above, same thing.)

Would you consider that person racist?...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I probably would. I'd also note that almost nobody harbors such animosity. And, for a different discussion, I'd support the banker's (or any other businessman's) right to decide with whom he wants to do business. No matter how "discriminatory" or offensive. Private property rights. There would be a boatload of consequences for imposing such a policy, but appearing before a judge should not be on the list.

[oldwomanc6 52]

Wendy, your post seems to indicate that only racist behavior/sentiment happens when such is directed at a group other than what one is. Did I read that right? I'm not trying to start an argument, but further the discussion/distinction/definition.

A case in point is poor tipping among blacks. My daughter supported herself through college in food service. She has noticed a trend that blacks do not tip well at all. This is her observation, keep this in mind with where I am going.

This also is the general consensus with the wait staff that she knows. It is discussed among them and generally agreed upon. Does this make them racist?

Before it is decided that it proves beyond a doubt it does, say my daughter is black, is it OK for her to generalize this way?

No, she is not black. However, the black servers she worked with would scramble and wheel and deal in order not to be assigned the table which will statistically will yield a pitiful amount. Is that racist?

Or is it reality as the wait staff observes. Is it OK for black servers to categorize this way, but not a white (or asian or hispanic) server? Is it OK for my daughter to say "white trash" customers suck, but not black customers?

I guess this is my long-winded way of asking: Why is it OK for a person of group X to comment on group X negatively, but a person from group Y says the same thing and all of a sudden, it's racist? If a persons "prejudice" comes from observation, is it racism, or learning from experience?

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[Marinus 0]

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If his conclusion is "blacks are cheap" then yes.

But what if turns out that afro-Americans are in fact generally niggards cheapskates? Well, cheapskate isn't a nice term, but conserving money isn't necessarily a bad thing. Keep in mind that I don't know anything about the tipping behaviour of blacks in the US, so I'm not saying Afro-Americans are cheapskates.

But I do know about the tipping behaviour of the ethnicities around here, and there are differences. Especially one ethnicity is considered to be cheap throughout Europe, and I can't say I don't agree at least a bit with that. Sure members of this ethnicity usually don't call it cheap, in fact they often take great pride in their economical ways, but the term cheap isn't completely unfair in regard to this ethnicity. I'm not a racist but I don't think you should deny something about an ethnicity that is partly true just because it might hurt some precious feewings.

[diablopilot 2]

A person has very little control over their initial thoughts and feelings to outside simuli based on their past experiences and socializations.

To think a certain way or have a pre conceived notion is not racist.

To exhibit anti social behavior or negative reactive actions because of those thoughts or notions IS racist.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wmw999 2,447]

Well said.

And the person who, inside, holds strong racial feelings, but doesn't act on them, is often the bravest (or the most cowardly, depending on why they don't act on them )

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Coreece 190]

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Quote

A person has very little control over their initial thoughts and feelings to outside simuli based on their past experiences and socializations.

To think a certain way or have a pre conceived notion is not racist.

To exhibit anti social behavior or negative reactive actions because of those thoughts or notions IS racist.

Well said.

Well, I would've said "negative reactions" rather then "negative reactive actions."

...but anyway, I don't think that all negative reactions are necessarily racist. Some reactions are just as normal or uncontrollable as the initial thought or feeling that caused the reaction...take for example this video of Michael Bolton's reaction to a black man walking down the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKlDBi0cyIA

I think these preconceived notions become racist when the uncontrollable thoughts manifest themselves into feelings of superiority and become deliberately oppressive in nature.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[wmw999 2,447]

Grammar nazi

That said, I think your point that it's probably a continuum, and that "racist" probably depends both on the intent and the reception is a good one.

It's very, very subjective. Kind of like porn. Sometimes it's really clear and indisputable to 90% of the viewers. Sometimes it's only perceived by one person. Maybe, just maybe, it's not entirely clear all the time.

If you mix in actual experience with perception, that just makes it worse. I used to have a neighbor who was a cop; he said that he had to fight his perception that everyone he deals with is guilty. Of course, as a beat cop, many of the people he dealt with were, in fact, guilty; caught in the act, in fact.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Airman1270 0]

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Wendy, your post seems to indicate that only racist behavior/sentiment happens when such is directed at a group other than what one is. Did I read that right? I'm not trying to start an argument, but further the discussion/distinction/definition.

A case in point is poor tipping among blacks. My daughter supported herself through college in food service. She has noticed a trend that blacks do not tip well at all. This is her observation, keep this in mind with where I am going.

This also is the general consensus with the wait staff that she knows. It is discussed among them and generally agreed upon. Does this make them racist?

Before it is decided that it proves beyond a doubt it does, say my daughter is black, is it OK for her to generalize this way?

No, she is not black. However, the black servers she worked with would scramble and wheel and deal in order not to be assigned the table which will statistically will yield a pitiful amount. Is that racist?

Or is it reality as the wait staff observes. Is it OK for black servers to categorize this way, but not a white (or asian or hispanic) server? Is it OK for my daughter to say "white trash" customers suck, but not black customers?

I guess this is my long-winded way of asking: Why is it OK for a person of group X to comment on group X negatively, but a person from group Y says the same thing and all of a sudden, it's racist? If a persons "prejudice" comes from observation, is it racism, or learning from experience?

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Jon likes this. (little thumb-up)


If you talk with people in the restaurant business you'll learn that the Sunday after-church rush is the least desireable shift because these customers generally don't tip well. But I've never heard anyone accused of anti-Christian bigotry simply for mentioning it.

Cheers,
Jon

[Coreece 190]

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Jon likes this. (little thumb-up)

Who's Jon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEgiH1Uanlo

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jclalor 12]

Evidently, the Brothers are just cheap, and by being cheap, hurt thier communities.



http://tri-statedefenderonline.com/articlelive/articles/2612/1/The-Tipping-Gap--Whats-at-stake/Page1.html

[Airman1270 0]

[winsor 236]

I draw the line at a double-standard.

If something is reprehensible for a member of group A to say regarding a member of group B, but a member of group B gets a pass for saying something equally reprehensible about a member of group A, I have a problem with that.

For example, I have been subjected to venomous racial slurs by people whose impunity was by dint of a fashionable skin color, where I would have faced charges if I had been the one uttering venomous racial slurs.

Whenever a subject becomes the third rail of social interaction, things get crazy. You can have a detailed discussion of equine or canine breeds and genders, but when the species under consideration is human, all bets are off. It as though one is forced to pretend that Chihuahuas and Mastiffs are interchangeable, or that Clydesdales and Arabians must be equally represented in a race or in a team. Add to that, of course, the requirement that no preference be made to whether we have a stallion, mare or gelding.

I have met exceptional people from all parts of the world, and I have come across few groups that did not have some seriously bad apples.

Having said that, I think that having identical expectations of people coming from vastly different cultures is absurd. Something that might be quite normal in Osaka could be viewed as horrific in Santiago and vice-versa.

At any rate, organizations with race-based agenda are, by definition, racist. I see the Aryan Nation to be no more or less racist than the NAACP or BET. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are professional racists to a greater extent than is David Duke.

Having spent an awful lot more time in Africa that all but a vanishingly small number of American negroes (most of whom could not find Chad or Zimbabwe on a map), if I ever refer to anyone as an "African American" they are likely to be Berber or Boer.

"Racism" is largely a cop out.


BSBD,

Winsor