Florida Teen Shot

[billvon 2,991]

>that person couldn't escape and choose to stop and fight (in their mind they were
>defending themselves), jumped on the stalker and was hitting him, stalker pulls the
>gun and bang. under FL law is this OK

That may be the case, and may be an even bigger issue. If it is demonstrated that this law shields murderous stalkers, it may well be overturned.

[3331 137]

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[billvon 2,991]

>>If someone is innocently . . .

>You know this?

He was guilty as sin! He had a hoodie. And skittles. A hoodie alone might not mean you're a criminal, but skittles? No way someone with skittles is innocent.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

That's the 3rd time that's been posted. We got it already.

[1969912 0]

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In the comments following one of the news stories, someone wrote: "Everyone's so wawawa about this little nigger boy. I say more of them should be put down, before they grow up to be gangstas."

That wouldn't have been you, by any chance?

Don

No.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billeisele 130]

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>that person couldn't escape and choose to stop and fight (in their mind they were
>defending themselves), jumped on the stalker and was hitting him, stalker pulls the
>gun and bang. under FL law is this OK

That may be the case, and may be an even bigger issue. If it is demonstrated that this law shields murderous stalkers, it may well be overturned.

it will be interesting to see the final story that comes out of this, and suspect that this law may be revised

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[dks13827 3]

I know that here in AZ in the CCW class they teach that you are NOT a cop and you are not to pursue suspects on foot, with your weapon drawn. Not your job nor your business.

[dpreguy 14]

wisc. You are not knowedgeable in the laws of arrest. No one can be arrested without probable cause existing that a crime was committed. Your comment to "arrest Zimmerman and then investigate" shows your ignorance of the law. Note I did not call you ignorant, just your lack of knowledge of the law of arrest. Probable cause to arrest is just that. I don't know what the reports say, and what evidence there was, or what the witnesses said. Only the officers on the scene would have known that information. If they were doing their job, they would have had ALL of that on the scene, and the street officer in charge would have made the determination on the spot to determine if there was probable cause to believe a crime was committed by Zimmerman. Appartantly there wasn't, as police officers are not shy about arresting when there is probale cause to belive a crime was actually committed. A later arrest warrant can be issued, if probable cause is presented to a judge. This arrest warrant is in writing, and is called a "bench warrant" as it is issued from the judge's bench after a presentation to the judge of the facts. If that hasn't happened by now, one must conclude there isn't, in the mind of the prosecutor, sufficient probable cause existing that Zimmerman committed a crime, and that there is no reason for a presentment of that evidence to the judge to get an arrest warrant. If the evidence develops and with certain procedures, a prosecutor can, at any time, "Direct File". Then apply for an immediate arrest warrant.

It doesn't stop there. If the prosecutor chooses not to Direct File, he can empanel a Grand Jury because it is a felony to be considered, and upon presentment to the Grand Jury, if they find probale cause to charge = "Indict" (accuse) Zimmerman of a felony crime, they issue a "True Bill". An indictment. An arrest warrant is then immediatly issued by the judge.

Long and short of it; no one should be arrested just to make the public feel better. The fact that Zimmerman hasn't been arrested seems to piss off a lot of people, but that can't be done w/o the necessary probable cause of a crime being committed. Apparantly it isn't there. Yet.

[skinnay 0]

No way, there are definitely no racists in this thread!

[GeorgiaDon 362]

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His labored breathing suggests he's out of shape and needs more cardio in his regime. Judging by his pic, he's not exactly a triathlete. He could still be breathing hard even though he's stopped following.

Agreed. Perhaps the police investigated this, perhaps not; I haven't seen anything one way or the other, but it might be like the incident reports where we have to wait for the "official report". I would think a timely examination of the scene might have revealed what really happened. Footprints made while running are different than footprints made by a walking person. Did Martin drop his iced tea/skittles? The location could say something about the dynamic of the chase. I hope the information wasn't lost because of a poor police investigation.

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Zimmerman then spends about 2 mins or so talking to the 911 operator before hanging up after saying "Okay" to "Don't chase him". The "okay" sounds like something someone who is actually complying and/or stopping pursuit and heading back to his truck. That's guess work for sure, but it's certainly not the vigilante attitude the MSM and friends wants to portray.

Could be. Jakee's suggestion that "OK" is what someone would say if their intent was to blow off the 911 dispatcher is also possible. As above, timely investigation could have supported or refuted this.

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Nothing direct, but back in the thread there's this http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...d-zimmerman-03232012 which states a witness who has given statements and was interviewed by the police saw "everything" and it corroborates Zimmerman's account of what took place, as well as that Zimmerman is the one screaming for help.

Again, what I have seen is a statement from a witness that he heard a commotion, looked out the window, and saw one guy (presumably Martin) on top of, and striking, another person (presumably Zimmerman). It seems clear a fight occurred between the two, also based on Zimmerman's condition (grass stains, bloody nose). I haven't seen anything that says who threw the first punch. I certainly haven't seen anything from anyone who saw Martin hiding in the bushes and jumping out at Zimmerman.

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Not too mention its hard to imagine that a guy with a gun out, stalking a kid with his hands full, gets grass on his back and bleeds from his nose and head.

So far I haven't seen anything that alleges that Zimmerman had his gun drawn as he was chasing Martin. Did I miss something? I understood he drew his gun as he was getting the worse end of the fight.

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Without seeing Martin's behavior, we don't know if a normal person might have found him suspicious. Somehow, I think if you saw a guy slipping around houses where he didn't belong, and was dressed & acting like the guy in shot on the right (stolen from another forum, sorry :)) https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/...06349_54459859_n.jpg instead of the 5 year old "kid" picture, you might think he was suspicious too. Point is, exactly how Martin was acting, where he was walking, what he was doing, is speculation unless someone comes out with a video of it. Portraying the scene as a kid doing absolutely nothing and therefore Zimmerman was crazy for saying Martin was acting "suspicious" is prejudging both Zimmerman and the incident as a whole.

Well, this is one of the central points of the issue. Martin was not "out of place", he had every right to be there. Maybe he hadn't been there many times before and was unsure where the house was (as one possibility). I agree that a person wandering around, checking building numbers or something, might attract attention. I often see students wandering around my work place (University research labs) looking lost. I always stop and ask if I can help them. They could be looking to steal computers or balances or something, that has happened on rare occasions. Invariably, though, I find they are looking for some professor's office or lab. Usually I will take them there (a 1 or 2 minute walk down the hall), and in every instance it turns out they were expected and their story is legitimate. It would be really weird if I were to stop and stare at them until they freaked out and took off running, and even weirder if I were to chase them. For Zimmerman, appropriate behaviors would have been to politely ask Martin if he needed help, or to just observe him and let the police handle the questions. Staring and chasing IS initiating a confrontation.

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As for his history of how he's handle the watch, did he ever draw down on any of those people he confronted? Ever pick a fight? Or just get verbal? There's a wide spectrum there, and just because he may take his watch duties a little more seriously than others, doesn't necessarily mean he plays Wild West whenever he can.

I haven't heard of him drawing on anyone, I'm sure there would be a police report on such an incident so I doubt anything of the sort happened. There's a very fine line between "just verbal" and "picking a fight". People complained about his rude and aggressive interrogation of people who were doing nothing wrong, just (for example) visiting someone in the neighborhood. Those people were intimidated enough to answer his questions. Imagine this interaction instead between Zimmerman and your typical Type A personality skydiver. Such questions would be met by a pointed "fuck off". Where would things go from there? It's easy to imagine an arm grasped to keep our skydiver from walking away, a punch thrown in response... Zimmerman's attitude was not helpful, or appropriate.

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If Z's story is even close to being true, I don't think Martin became a homicidal maniac, but rather Martin decided to pick a fight that sadly turned deadly. Martin was 17, 6' 200#, in shape, and a lot of kids that age feel indestructible, and at that height and weight, maybe he thought he could take Zimmerman. Wouldn't be the first time a teenager picked a fight with someone older.

Zimmerman made numerous statements to the 911 dispatcher that indicated an unwarranted aggressive attitude, actual anger in fact, towards Martin. Yet the argument is that Martin, for no reason, came after Zimmerman. Please pardon my skepticism.

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I think what's actually known, what actual evidence there is, what witnesses have actually said at the very least make this case no where near as cut and dry as say, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the NPP want to make it. I think that Zimmerman's version, or one close to it, is probable enough that people shouldn't be joining the lynch mob.

Jackson/Sharpton/NPP have done nothing but pollute this incident for their own gain. Those guys did good work back in the civil rights era, but unfortunately their business model requires them to keep perpetuating old problems. I give them no account. I'd also prefer to avoid the lynch mob mentality too. I'd just like to see a thorough vetting of the evidence. I hope a proper investigation was done, and all the evidence is eventually presented to the public.

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I don't teach my kids to hide in bushes and then jump the guy when he returns to his truck. Anyway, this version is assuming way too much than is known.

Yet I'm sure you teach them to get away from strangers who are trying to accost them. Getting away might very well involve hiding. Was Zimmerman walking directly back to the truck, perhaps whistling a happy tune to boot? Or was he perhaps still looking for Martin? Checking in doorways and bushes for that drug-addled asshole? Perhaps checking in THAT BUSH, the one Martin has hidden in to escape? So what is Martin to do? Here comes that pedophile, OMG he's coming right here! He'll find me! I can't let him take me!

So in this scenario, who has really initiated the confrontation? If someone is stalking you, hunting you, chasing you, and now is coming right to your hiding place, is it reasonable to expect that you should just sit there and meekly allow him to discover you and do who-knows-what to you? Are you really the aggressor if you defend yourself by jumping out at this unknown aggressor who has been chasing you?

Even if Martin hid in a bush, and jumped Zimmerman, the situation does not require Martin to be the aggressor, in my opinion.

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You assume there was any sort of talk between Zimmerman and Martin. Again, if Zimmerman gave up, started to go back to his truck, and Martin jumped him, its completely unreasonable for Zimmerman to identify him as he's getting pulped.

I was referring to the several minutes when Zimmerman was on the phone to 911 while staring at Martin, then chasing him. He could have called out to Martin and identified himself as being with Neighborhood Watch, but he didn't do that. So all the information Martin would have had is that "there's a strange guy starting at me, and now he's chasing me!" According to his girlfriend, who he was on the phone with at the time this was all happening, that is exactly what Martin thought. There's a reason the police identify themselves as police when they enter a premise, or seek to detain someone.

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Take the other side. Let's say you legitimately feel that you see a suspicious person where you live. You follow them a little bit so the police can find them.

When you say "you follow them a little bit" you make it sound like Zimmerman was trying to inconspicuously tail Martin. Initiating a full-on foot race is not just "following them a little bit". It's an action that any reasonable person would see as quite aggressive.

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You lose sight of them, head back to your truck when you're hit from behind. Next thing you know, you're head goes into concrete, someone's splattered your nose and you're getting pummeled.

Not sure how this is supposed to happen? So Martin outruns Zimmerman (very plausible), disappears somewhere up ahead, so Zimmerman gives up, turns around, and heads back to his truck. In the meantime Martin for some reason turns back, manages somehow to get past Zimmerman without being seen, and positions himself somewhere between Zimmerman and his truck so he can jump Zimmerman from behind as he innocently walks past?

Somehow, to me, the alternative scenario that Martin was being chased, managed to hide so Zimmerman went past him, then fought with Zimmerman when his hiding place was discovered as Zimmerman returned to his truck, seems much more plausible.

It still seems to me to be much more plausible that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, by making unwarranted assumptions about Martin, and initiating a chase without identifying himself or his intentions to Martin. When he cornered Martin, who had no idea who Zimmerman was, a confrontation ensued and Zimmerman resorted to deadly force.

Did Zimmerman go looking to kill someone? There is no evidence for that. Rather it seems he acted aggressively, overstepping his authority as a private citizen and attempting to take on the role of a police officer. Unwittingly he precipitated a situation in which a young man was forced to defend himself against an unknown pursuer. Zimmerman, not understanding that he was the one who initiated the confrontation, believed he was entitled to use deadly force to defend himself. As a result, a life has been wasted.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 362]

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I know that here in AZ in the CCW class they teach that you are NOT a cop and you are not to pursue suspects on foot, with your weapon drawn. Not your job nor your business.

Excellent advice. Here in Georgia there are no CCW classes required. All you need to obtain a permit is a clean background check. No familiarity with the law, or proficiency in the care and use of firearms, is required. I wonder what the situation is in Florida?

I would think sensible people would want to know the law, and correct firearm use, if only to protect themselves against stumbling into trouble due to ignorance.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Gravitymaster 0]

Only problem with your story is if it happened that way, the Police would have arrested Jorges. So obviously there's pieces missing. Either that or Jorges is a very good liar.

[tkhayes 348]

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The mob demanding justice at this point is severely distorting what is actually known at this point.

Or perhaps The mob demanding justice at this point is an accurate reflection of what society is willing to tolerate.

democracy at work. Perhaps if nothing happens to Zimmerman, some good comes out of it in the form of changes to the laws as to what is acceptable behavior when carrying a firearm. The stand your ground laws have already defined it, perhaps it needs to be clarified.

[tkhayes 348]

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Nice story. Only problem is the Police investigated and found no reason to charge Zimmerman. Oh, that's right, the Police are racists too. Well doesn't that just tie everything up in a nice little package with a red bow.

And perhaps the kids' Dad had coached him on how to look out for 'creeps' that follow you around. JHC, that's Boy Scouts 101.

And perhaps the kid knew he was being followed and then was retreating, and perhaps then Zimmerman continued to follow him, and perhaps the kid took steps to defend himself from someone that as far as he knew, was a kidnapper, child molester, whatever. Only now you are saying that he attacked Zimmerman.

Zimmerman participated in an escalation of a situation that did not need to be escalated. And he did it while armed. There was no need for either a neighborhood watch person to be armed and no need to continue following.

Is it a crime? Apparently not. Again, I state that most of American seems to think it is OK to shoot someone for fuck all reason. And that is sad.

[tkhayes 348]

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Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

I gave a plausible scenario just one or two posts ago.

[tkhayes 348]

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Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

again, answered two posts ago

[wlsc 0]

He should have been arrested because he'd just shot an innocent black kid dead. Isn't this the point where any black criminal is arrested, pressured, quite often tortured, and then framed if they still deny their guilt? See I'm more knowledgeable than you think.

[kelpdiver 2]

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To survive you've got to live in the real world. In the real world black people get accosted far more than 'whites'.

Now when you say this, are you basing it on actual data? Gut feel? Race driven rage?

And what happens if you remove the black on black violence, just so we can see the level of [potentially] racially motivated violence?

You've made many sweeping statements based on thin air...any substance to back them?

[wlsc 0]

Your Rhetorical arrows are weak. Study History and your questions are answered. Also try Google.

[popsjumper 2]

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>That was the kid's mistake, he was not carrying. Then instead of hitting Zimmerman in
>the face, the kid could have just shot him, and Florida law would have protected him
>instead of protecting Zimmerman.

Exactly. And as a result of this incident, youths who are approached by people in the neighborhood will be justified in shooting first.

Of course, once _that_ becomes commonplace, then homeowners will be justified in shooting any kids they see, for fear that they will identify them as neighborhood watch people and kill them.

I figure once both sides whittle down their numbers by, say, 75% most of the problem will go away.

Say...that's a good idea! We can get popcorn and watch the bozo action until the characters eliminate themselves! I LIKE it! Kinda like a movie where everybody dies in the end.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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All the anti-death penalty liberals here seem to think that a 1,000 guilty murderers should go free in order to save one innocent man on death row.

I'm not sure about the "liberal" tag but you can count me in with that group.

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And the ironic thing is, those are the same people who are here calling the shooter a murderer,

Now where did you get that idea?

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It's funny how that double standard works: Death row murderers = Innocent, Gun owner = Guilty.

That statement is so far off the wall....John, My God man, you can twist like a semi-pro. If you can make your twists believable, you can move up to the pro ranks.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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>It would also be a very stupid response.

Yes, it would be.

>Assaulting someone who is holding a gun while armed only with your fists, is a sure
>way to get shot.

Yep. It would be much smarter for the person being threatened to draw their own weapon, so they can fire and kill their threatener before they are themselves killed. Fortunately the new law makes both their actions legal - so the only issue that remains is "who can draw faster?"

...and you would be competing with John for the Twisting Championship Trophy. The "new" law does no such thing.

From the CCN article:
"Nothing in 'stand your ground' authorizes (you) to pursue and confront,"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Well, guess what all you thumb suckers. It doesn't matter what you think; and if you feel so bold, write your congressman.

According to the law, this guy (Hispanic none-the-less) could be an absolute flaming racist. Yes, flaming racist! He could hate any race 10 ways from Tuesday. Guess what, doesn't frickin' matter.

What matters is whether he felt his life was in danger at that particular moment. (read that again, and take a deep breath)

You don't have to like it....you may even despise it....whatever. But the laws that protect you protect racist as well. Oh shit....living in America is a quandary!!

Bottom line, let local law enforcement and the district attorney do their job. If that fails, let the Feds investigate.

Bottom line...you were not there and neither was I.

If you think that if a racist kills someone out of self-defense that they should hang, just because they are racist, then you are no better than they are.

Holy shit! Somebody with some common sense. Unbelievable. Really.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,447]

But if he was the guy who started the situation that led to his feeling as though he was in danger, does that mean that he still gets to use deadly force without question?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,447]

Who is Jorges? Your attempt to spin Zimmerman's name? or someone else's?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)