Florida Teen Shot

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If someone was tailing me at night,I would keep an eye and ear on them,and try to get somewhere I felt more secure.
I would not confront,or start any kind of interaction with a percieved threat until being physically assaulted by a threat.
Why would you attack a guy who was following you at night if he had not made a physical assault upon you.
I am white,blue eyed,blonde haired,and have been stopped and questioned many times by both police and concerned citizens while I've been walking late at night.
I often walk late at night to take in the night air and stretch my legs a bit.
When I've been questioned by those who find my presence to be out of the ordinary or suspiscious,I completely understand where they are coming from,and try to let them know that I'm no threat and do not get offended at all by their curiosity.
In fact,I thank them for being observant and taking an interest in something out of the ordinary in the area,as it may also help me if I were to be hit by a car or attacked by a bad guy while walking at night.
If you are out of place,you should expect to be scrutinized by the locals.
If I thought someone was after me,I would not turn and approach them. What if they had a knife or a GUN!!!

Very logical and I mostly agree.

So, why would Trayvon have done exactly the opposite?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Why is it so important to you that Zimmerman be the animal you want him to be?

I like that one.

Why is it so important to you that Trayvon deserved to die?

[rushmc 23]

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Why is it so important to you that Zimmerman be the animal you want him to be?

I like that one.

Why is it so important to you that Trayvon deserved to die?

Now there is some stretching

My point is and has always been is there are many here getting on the he is guilty of murder band wagon

You will note it was some time before I posted here

I do that alot because more usually comes out

Now you, and those like you here, have so much invested in making Zimmerman out to be the bad guy you can no longer look at this case with any objectivity

IF, he is guilty of murder or manslaughter I want him in jail

IF he is not, he has the right to live his life

You and black panthers do not want that to happen it seems

You have judged him, labled him, and are ready to send him to jail

Nicely done

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

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I can't find anything that says the shooter was the attacker. Where is that? Everything I found says he claims self defense. I know he was neighborhood watch, called the police, and followed the guy. Then, he claimed something happened that caused him to defend himself.

Dave:

The key to me was that he followed the kid. The kid therefore, in my mind, could both subjectively and objectively believe that he was in danger and attack to defend himself. I don't see evidence that the shooter made the first physical contact (nor do I have anything ruling it out. Last time I was in a fight a guy was threatening to kick my ass. When he gave a light shove to my shoulder I clocked him and was right in doing it. He was instantly neutralized).

I have two probem with the shooter: (1) he followed the kid, therefore constituting provocation in my mind. The kid was retreating continually and I can see good reason for him stopping to defend himself; and (2) the shooter escalated to deadly force.

I just saw something that suggests the kid was goin for his gun. That's a double-edged sword, too. Put yourself in the mindset of the kid and he's being followed and accosted/menaced by some guy and he sees that the guy has a gun. What now?

All of these facts caqn be read entirely differently from the points of view of the shooter and the kid. I haven't seen a fact yet that I cannot see a reasonable interpretation that the kid was put in an honest and reasonable fear for his own safety.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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My point is and has always been is there are many here getting on the he is guilty of murder band wagon

You will note it was some time before I posted here

I do that alot because more usually comes out

And after all that waiting and thoughtful processing of information you post that maybe Trayvon was stalking Zimmerman.

But it is everybody else who is agenda driven?

[davjohns 1]

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I can't find anything that says the shooter was the attacker. Where is that? Everything I found says he claims self defense. I know he was neighborhood watch, called the police, and followed the guy. Then, he claimed something happened that caused him to defend himself.

Dave:

The key to me was that he followed the kid. The kid therefore, in my mind, could both subjectively and objectively believe that he was in danger and attack to defend himself. I don't see evidence that the shooter made the first physical contact (nor do I have anything ruling it out. Last time I was in a fight a guy was threatening to kick my ass. When he gave a light shove to my shoulder I clocked him and was right in doing it. He was instantly neutralized).

I have two probem with the shooter: (1) he followed the kid, therefore constituting provocation in my mind. The kid was retreating continually and I can see good reason for him stopping to defend himself; and (2) the shooter escalated to deadly force.

I just saw something that suggests the kid was goin for his gun. That's a double-edged sword, too. Put yourself in the mindset of the kid and he's being followed and accosted/menaced by some guy and he sees that the guy has a gun. What now?

All of these facts caqn be read entirely differently from the points of view of the shooter and the kid. I haven't seen a fact yet that I cannot see a reasonable interpretation that the kid was put in an honest and reasonable fear for his own safety.

I'm still confused by the facts. Someone else posted some stuff from the Sentinel that says something different from what you are saying. And I'm real confused by your contention that the young man (not a child or kid) "attacked to defend himself" or was "retreating constantly". If you have a link to anything that gives these facts, please share. I haven't found anything from eye witnesses.

I have NO evidence of what was said, distance between the people, directions they were facing, tones used, body language, etc. To conclude either of them was right or wrong is to make huges leaps of inference. All I know is that the police have more facts than I do, and they chose not to detain the shooter.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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All I know is that the police have more facts than I do, and they chose not to detain the shooter.

Which doesn't say much either.

[davjohns 1]

Maybe. Hard to say. But it's the system we have to go with right now. All these opinions without facts are very disturbing. New Black Panthers offering bounties; people declaring facts when eye witnesses say something different; people claiming the police aren't doing their job because the young man is black while the shooter is hispanic...it's concerning.

And then I read this in the Sentinal article:

"Rev. Al Sharpton, who led a rally last week that drew 8,000 to downtown Sanford, said the media was missing the point.

"Why are we asking what Trayvon is capable of, when you have records of Zimmerman's past?" Sharpton asked the crowd of reporters. "He has the record of violence, so why are we going out of our way to create stuff in Trayvon's background when you have documented stuff in Zimmerman's background?"

If he has documentation, why am I sitting here with a dirth of information?

Lots of talk by people who weren't there and don't know the facts.

I'm pretty happy acknowledging that I don't know what happened and will wait to see what comes to light.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Shotgun 1]

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Maybe Trayvon Martin was the stalker here

Or maybe Zimmerman told Trayvon he was a fucking coon before he turned and walked back.

Maybe Zimmerman tripped over a raccoon while he was walking back to his SUV.

Just sayin'....

[mnealtx 0]

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I have two probem with the shooter: (1) he followed the kid, therefore constituting provocation in my mind. The kid was retreating continually and I can see good reason for him stopping to defend himself; and (2) the shooter escalated to deadly force.

Can't agree. The simple act of following someone could *escalate* into a threat, but is not a threat in and of itself. Therefore, 'continuously retreating' becomes a false premise.

If the eyewitness reports are true, Martin closed on Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground, initiating the attack. Someone on the ground is at a decided *dis*advantage in a fight and having taken at least one blow to the head, is at an even higher disadvantage.

Once Martin closed on Zimmerman, he had the ability and opportunity to inflict harm. Once Zimmerman was on the ground having taken at least one blow to the head, he was in jeopardy of grave injury or death. At this point, the triad of ability, opportunity and jeopardy was shown and the use of force was justified.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Maybe Zimmerman tripped over a raccoon while he was walking back to his SUV.

Yup.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Once Martin closed on Zimmerman, he had the ability and opportunity to inflict harm. Once Zimmerman was on the ground having taken at least one blow to the head, he was in jeopardy of grave injury or death. At this point, the triad of ability, opportunity and jeopardy was shown and the use of force was justified.

Not disputing that at all. What is at question to me is how it got to that point.

We know why Zimmerman started following Martin.

We don't know why Martin attacked Zimmerman, if that is what happened. A 17 year old male with an anger management problem would likely have that documented somewhere in some form.

[mnealtx 0]

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Once Martin closed on Zimmerman, he had the ability and opportunity to inflict harm. Once Zimmerman was on the ground having taken at least one blow to the head, he was in jeopardy of grave injury or death. At this point, the triad of ability, opportunity and jeopardy was shown and the use of force was justified.

Not disputing that at all. What is at question to me is how it got to that point.

We know why Zimmerman started following Martin.

We don't know why Martin attacked Zimmerman, if that is what happened. A 17 year old male with an anger management problem would likely have that documented somewhere in some form.

Like records for the school suspension that Martin was in the midst of at the time of his death that the parents are fighting to keep out of evidence?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

if that is what happened. A 17 year old male with an anger management problem would likely have that documented somewhere in some form.

[jakee 1,489]

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Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

If the child was walking lawfully home and he noticed he was being followed, and then confronted by an armed stranger, perhaps he was in fear of his life and attempted to defend himself.

If that's what happened, then this would explain why Jorges wasn't arrested. You cannot assault someone whom you think is following you.

Well, no. If that's what Zimmerman said happened, that would explain why George wasn't arrested. There are still no witnesses (none that have been made public, anyway) to confirm or deny his version of events.

And seriously, why do you keep calling him Jorges? It's like you're demonstrating that your entire argument against police racism (or his racism) being a factor depends on him being absolutely totally hispanic and not white at all not even a little bit. Which isn't true. And clinging to it like you're doing just makes you look like you have no faith in the known facts backing up your argument.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Like records for the school suspension that Martin was in the midst of at the time of his death that the parents are fighting to keep out of evidence?

For instance, but that one was for an empty marijuana baggie. (plus isn't MJ supposed to make you mellow and less likely to fight?)

Have their been any other suspensions?

Don't care if his parents are fighting to keep it out of the public's eye. I am sure the information could be gathered by police and justice officials.

[jakee 1,489]

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If he didn't know he was armed, then why would he feel threatened?

For many plausible reasons.

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If he knew he was armed, why would he attack him.

For many plausible reasons.

Come on, think.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[fasted3 0]

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Like records for the school suspension that Martin was in the midst of at the time of his death that the parents are fighting to keep out of evidence?

News flash! Report just in that he was suspended from school for having an empty bag of marijuana.

On a related note, I just gave my wife an empty bag of gold coins. She did not seem as grateful as I was hoping for.

But what do I know?

[kelpdiver 2]

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We don't know why Martin attacked Zimmerman, if that is what happened. A 17 year old male with an anger management problem would likely have that documented somewhere in some form.

??

between HIPPA and the general policy of keeping minors' records under wrap, that's an odd presumption.

[jakee 1,489]

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Now there is some stretching

You honestly don't see it, do you?

Fascinating.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Can't agree. The simple act of following someone could *escalate* into a threat, but is not a threat in and of itself. Therefore, 'continuously retreating' becomes a false premise.

The clear act of following someone certainly would be considered a threat. You don't wait for a stalker to attack before deciding you might be in condition yellow or red.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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There have been reports that this is the case

I have not seen them just read a news article

Would these be by the same media you decry as agenda driven MSM that cannot be trusted?

Or is that only when you don't agree with them?

[jakee 1,489]

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If the eyewitness reports are true, Martin closed on Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground, initiating the attack.

What eyewitness reports?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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A 17 year old male with an anger management problem would likely have that documented somewhere in some form.

Like records for the school suspension that Martin was in the midst of at the time of his death that the parents are fighting to keep out of evidence?

Upthread it was reported he was suspended over an empty baggy.

So no. Not like that school suspension.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'm sure one of your whimsical reasons will suffice.