SkyDekker 1,465 #726 March 29, 2012 Quoteit was a really stupid question Is that why you aren't commenting on the really stupid rest of your post? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #727 March 29, 2012 >Maybe he is just one of those dangerous folks that have not been in trouble yet you >keep talking about? It might. Although I think being arrested for attacking a cop, and having a restraining order issued as a result of perpetrating domestic violence, are probably more ominous signs than a tweet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #728 March 29, 2012 It's in the media a little bit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/herman-cain-black-panther-threats_n_1387788.html But yeah, I agree with you that we should be hearing more about it. Is it actually legal for this group to be offering a reward for the capture of a citizen who should currently be presumed innocent? And if not, then why is nothing (apparently) being done about it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #729 March 29, 2012 Quote*** Don't you claim that one of the big dangers of easy gun ownership is you never know who is going to snap and when? No I could have sworn that was one of your positions... My apologies if I am incorrect. QuoteI wouldn't use somebody's tweets alone as a precursor to violent behaviour. I would suggest it is a pretty dangerous precendent. I would be very surprised if you of all people would not agree with that. I would agree. However, ALL evidence needs to be looked at. And the evidence that is coming out now is painting a different picture of Trayvon than originally pitched. It should be looked at, not discounted. If I had to venture a guess... I'd say that Trayvon was a wannabe gangbanger than ran across a wannabe cop. Now, while I don't know this is what happened, but following a person is enough to piss a guy off however it is NOT sufficient to allow a violent response. If Trayvon attacked GZ for following him and was beating him on the ground... The GZ was legally allowed to use force to stop the attack. If GZ started the altercation then it changes things, but the evidence so far does not support GZ starting a violent attack. The evidence so far seems to support Trayvon starting the fight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #730 March 29, 2012 Quote>Maybe he is just one of those dangerous folks that have not been in trouble yet you >keep talking about? It might. Although I think being arrested for attacking a cop, and having a restraining order issued as a result of perpetrating domestic violence, are probably more ominous signs than a tweet. True, but also 5-6 years ago and the restraining order didn't seem to hold enough water to stick. All I am saying is that the 'innocent 17 year old' story is not exactly matching the data that is available. And it does not seem to matter much to the mob mentality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #731 March 29, 2012 If you believe in miracles; everything is a miracle. If not; nothing is a miracle. This case reminds me of that. Some people want to believe Zimmerman did wrong and they will take any lack of evidence and run with it. Some people start out without presumptions and see that the facts do not support his guilt. Most of the arguments for Zimmerman doing wrong rely on not enough blood, not enough witnesses, witnesses who came forward must be lying, police bungled it, the young man's record isn't admissible evidence, Zimmerman must be racist because the young man was black...lack of evidence that he did right is not evidence that he did wrong. Presuming witnesses are unreliable and police are incompetent does not make a case. Some people seem to be demanding perfect knowledge of his innocence before giving him a chance. You have to begin with the presumption of guilt for these arguments to hold any water.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #732 March 29, 2012 >All I am saying is that the 'innocent 17 year old' story is not exactly matching the data >that is available. Nor is the "innocent volunteer watch guy who avoided confrontation" story holding up. And now the "armed man defending himself from violent attack" story is starting to unravel. It seems that, rather than new revelations plugging holes in the story, each new one casts more doubt on _both_ people involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #733 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd being a 17 year old fit football player... I'd most likely run like hell and put as much distance between me and the other guy as I could. Mr Miaggi, "Best defense, don't be there" So, why didn't he? I know why I wouldn't have when I was a 17 year old football player. I was bullet proof and bomb proof (or so I thought) and like most 17 year old kids I didn't always have the best reasoning. Back then if someone was following me I would have closed the distance and asked them what their problem was. Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #734 March 29, 2012 Quote>All I am saying is that the 'innocent 17 year old' story is not exactly matching the data >that is available. Nor is the "innocent volunteer watch guy who avoided confrontation" story holding up. And now the "armed man defending himself from violent attack" story is starting to unravel. It seems that, rather than new revelations plugging holes in the story, each new one casts more doubt on _both_ people involved. No, it seems the more data comes out, the more GZ's story is believable.... Unless you just hold onto your already held opinions and discount everything that comes up. First it was an overzealous white nutjob ignoring police orders and killing an innocent 17 year old for walking with skittles. When it was pointed out that GZ was actually half Hispanic... You discounted that. When it was found out that TM was not exactly a model student, you discounted that. Then when it was pointed out that the dispatcher never "ordered" GZ to do anything and that a dispatcher does not have the authority to make an order... Well you just discount that. When it seems according to the phone transcripts that GZ actually lost sight of TM and started walking back to this truck.... You just assume GZ found him again and ignore that TM might have started to follow GZ. When reports of witnesses stated that TM was on top of GZ and beating his ass.... You ignore that and claim that the witnesses are either trying to cover it up, and instead give credence to the audio only witnesses that claim they 'knew' it was a young boy calling for help. When reports showed that GZ had a broken nose and a head wound. You claim that the police and EMT's lied about that. You base that on a low rez video made several hours after the fact and his lack of hospital report. When it was shown he actually DID get medical attention, you claim he could have done it to himself later. The more data that comes to light the more GZ's story seems to hold water and the less your version seems to stand up. Seems no amount of evidence is going to be enough to appease this mob mentality. You will just continue to ignore relevant pieces and grasp at straws. Zimmerman was not angel. He was pretty stupid to go following someone... But that is not illegal. GZ called 911, TM did not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #735 March 29, 2012 QuoteWow. This whole thing just seems like a conspiracy theory to me. The police on the scene refused to arrest. There is at least one corroborating witness. There is also (at least) one witness disputing Zimmerman's story. I REALLY don't know what to believe, but to my nose Zimmerman's story smells to high heaven. I think the Sanford PD did a shitty job and as a result the truth may never come out.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #736 March 29, 2012 QuoteApparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. you do it every day on this site most likely - with words and even with the anonymity of the internet it gets (annoying, er, I mean) heated sometimes is it inconceivable the either or both of these guys got into a verbal confrontation which escalated? I can see it. I just don't understand how you can see it for one guy, but not the other..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #737 March 29, 2012 Quote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #738 March 29, 2012 QuoteUnless you just hold onto your already held opinions and discount everything that comes up. I don't think BV playing devil's advocate to your discussion is discounting it. It's just providing various scenarios that also play into the opposing argument. What you need to look at is how radical do those counters get to keep that string together vs the same for the other argument. usually, the best story becomes the most believable. eventually, one side will end up with just too many 'reaches' to hold water, at that point, a conclusion will be drawn it's not perfect, but having someone bounce your discussion back at you like that does the truth more good than bad - keeps people from drawing conclusions prematurely for either side ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #739 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. As I wrote several hundred posts ago, about the only FACT that is not in dispute is that TV, armed with groceries, was shot dead by GZ.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #740 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. As I wrote several hundred posts ago, about the only FACT that is not in dispute is that TV, armed with groceries, was shot dead by GZ. Since you mentioned facts, and even emphasized it, where's the mention of the groceries in the police report?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #741 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. As I wrote several hundred posts ago, about the only FACT that is not in dispute is that TV, armed with groceries, was shot dead by GZ. Since you mentioned facts, and even emphasized it, where's the mention of the groceries in the police report? Reading problem again, Mike? That's twice in 2 days. Who is disputing that he had groceries?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #742 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. As I wrote several hundred posts ago, about the only FACT that is not in dispute is that TV, armed with groceries, was shot dead by GZ. Since you mentioned facts, and even emphasized it, where's the mention of the groceries in the police report? Reading problem again, Mike? That's twice in 2 days. You've spouted off about medical care re: Zimmerman a half-dozen times even AFTER being told he received care at the scene. Best move out of that glass house before you start throwing stones, perfesser. QuoteWho is disputing that he had groceries? I'm asking where the evidence is of the groceries, since you've stated it as FACT at least twice. Got crime scene pictures? Police report?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #743 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. "apparently" is the word to use here. Did you use it because you know these figures are in dispute? GZ has cited weights as low as 170, TM up to 160. One thing not in dispute is that TM was at least 3 inches taller than GZ. As I wrote several hundred posts ago, about the only FACT that is not in dispute is that TV, armed with groceries, was shot dead by GZ. yet you seem to have no trouble drawing conclusions based on disputed facts?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #744 March 29, 2012 >No, it seems the more data comes out, the more GZ's story is believable.... Had the video showed the injuries he claimed, that would have made his story more believable. Instead it showed no visible injuries. Had what he said to police - that he had a "squeaky clean" record - been shown to be true, then that would have made his story more believable. Instead we found out he has a documented history of violence towards police and women, and had been accused of being overly aggressive to others in his role as "neighborhood watch." >When it was pointed out that GZ was actually half Hispanic... You discounted that. Yes. Race does not matter here, and neither excuses nor provides justification for any crimes. The ONLY reason it might matter is if the person in question expressed a desire to harm someone of the other race, because it speaks to motive. >When reports showed that GZ had a broken nose and a head wound. You claim that >the police and EMT's lied about that. Nope. I don't claim that anyone is lying. I claim the video (which is objective evidence, rather than a subjective statement) shows something different than what police claim. Why? >When reports of witnesses stated that TM was on top of GZ and beating his ass.... You >ignore that and claim that the witnesses are either trying to cover it up. Again, no. You can make up any straw men you like. But as time goes on, Zimmerman's story becomes less credible. I am sure Martin's story would have become less credible as well, had he had the opportunity to make one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #745 March 29, 2012 QuoteI don't think BV playing devil's advocate to your discussion is discounting it. It's just providing various scenarios that also play into the opposing argument. What you need to look at is how radical do those counters get to keep that string together vs the same for the other argument. usually, the best story becomes the most believable. eventually, one side will end up with just too many 'reaches' to hold water, at that point, a conclusion will be drawn it's not perfect, but having someone bounce your discussion back at you like that does the truth more good than bad - keeps people from drawing conclusions prematurely for either side *IF* they are doing it for the sake of discussion... You are correct. BV may be doing that, he might not be. I can't answer for him. But there are people that are holding onto the first version of the story no matter what data is presented and for no logical reason. If BV is not doing that, I can't say. I can say that it seems plenty of people are doing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #746 March 29, 2012 Quote[ Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. What are the actual weights and heights for either of these individuals. I have heard a bunch of different heights and weights for both."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #747 March 29, 2012 Quote>No, it seems the more data comes out, the more GZ's story is believable.... Had the video showed the injuries he claimed, that would have made his story more believable. Instead it showed no visible injuries. Yet the police report shows he DID have injuries. EMT's DID treat him for injuries. He DID go to the hospital for injuries. There is a very easy answer to why the video didn't show any injuries. 1. It was taken 4 hours after the incident. Blood clots stop bleeding and he had already been seen by medical personnel. 2. The resolution of the video is terrible. While a big wound on the TV screen would have helped his case, the fact it can't easily be seen does not really hurt it unless you are fishing for a reason to doubt the police report, EMT report, and witness statements. Quote>When reports showed that GZ had a broken nose and a head wound. You claim that >the police and EMT's lied about that. Nope. I don't claim that anyone is lying. I claim the video (which is objective evidence, rather than a subjective statement) shows something different than what police claim. Why? See above QuoteYou can make up any straw men you like. But as time goes on, Zimmerman's story becomes less credible You can claim that... it does not make it true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #748 March 29, 2012 QuoteIf Trayvon attacked GZ for following him and was beating him on the ground... The GZ was legally allowed to use force to stop the attack. Not disputing that at all. I agree. I wonder though how this changes if Zimmerman had said something like: "yes, run away you scared little nigger, That's all you are good for, run nigger, run". (For those with reading comprehension problems, I am not saying that I think this is what happened. I am wondering how it changes the legal concepts of self-defence and stand your ground) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #749 March 29, 2012 Quoteevidence is of the groceries The skittles and Arizona iced tea are pretty widely reported. I will now let you argue how those are not groceries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #750 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuote[ Apparently Martin was 140 pounds and Zimmerman is 250 pounds. I'm sure I'd pick a fight with someone nearly twice my weight. Sure. What are the actual weights and heights for either of these individuals. I have heard a bunch of different heights and weights for both. Police report estimates Martin's weight at 160.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
