billvon 2,998 #901 April 4, 2012 >Could it be that calm head OUTSIDE of both camps are slowly getting a >handle on this an defusing the bomb? Hopefully. Best case is that it gets investigated by the FBI and DOJ and that all the carefully arranged "leaks" by both sides stop. >Sad to think how short the attention span is over something like this. I don't much care if FOX News has a short attention span, as long as the people who matter (the investigators) pay attention. And that looks like that's happening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #902 April 4, 2012 >>Reasonable belief can be due to words alone. >Not according to Florida law, and not according to any State law in any >place I have ever lived. So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #903 April 4, 2012 Quote>>Reasonable belief can be due to words alone. >Not according to Florida law, and not according to any State law in any >place I have ever lived. So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? Nope. Legal definition: "An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm". So a guy cussing at you and saying he is gonna kick your ass is not an assault, but a guy saying he is gonna kick your ass while approaching you in an aggressive manner fits the definition. "The essential elements of assault consist of an act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact that causes apprehension of such contact in the victim. The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim..... In criminal law, the attempted battery type of assault requires a Specific Intent to commit battery. An intent to frighten will not suffice for this form of assault. There can be no assault if the act does not produce a true apprehension of harm in the victim. There must be a reasonable fear of injury. The usual test applied is whether the act would induce such apprehension in the mind of a reasonable person. The status of the victim is taken into account" So if a guy is saying he is going to kill you... That is not enough for you to start a physical altercation.... EVER. But, if he is saying he is going to kill you and there is reasonable belief that he has the ability to hurt you... Now you can legally defend yourself. In the example you gave: Quote So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? The fact that he is running at you WHILE saying he is going to kill you is enough for a reasonable person to think they are in danger. In fact just the act of the guy running at you *could* be considered enough, but that would be a MUCH harder sell. And the standards are different depending on conditions... For example a 100 pound girl can reasonably think a 180 pound guy without a weapon is a danger easier than a 220 pound offensive lineman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #904 April 4, 2012 Any law that depends on what someone BELIEVES is open to interpretation and to abuse.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #905 April 4, 2012 Quote>>Reasonable belief can be due to words alone. >Not according to Florida law, and not according to any State law in any >place I have ever lived. So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? Another of your hypotheticals that *supposedly* have nothing to do with the case? Ok. No, you don't have to wait until he strikes you, but there *are* certain things that have to be demonstrated - those are Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy. They have to have the ABILITY to employ deadly force against you. They have to have the OPPORTUNITY to employ deadly force against you. You have to be in JEOPARDY of grave injury or death. In your scenario, the man is *not* a *deadly* threat until he actually displays the weapon and is within a range where he can make an attack. People that have actually *had* training on the issue know that range is on the order of 7-10 yards from a flat-footed start.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #906 April 4, 2012 QuoteAny law that depends on what someone BELIEVES is open to interpretation and to abuse. That is why they have the "reasonable standard". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #907 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteAny law that depends on what someone BELIEVES is open to interpretation and to abuse. That is why they have the "reasonable standard". Ha ha, very funny. Reasonable people can disagree on what is "reasonable".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #908 April 4, 2012 Quote>>Reasonable belief can be due to words alone. >Not according to Florida law, and not according to any State law in any >place I have ever lived. So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? If he is running after you with a knife he is attacking you! In Florida you can turn around a cap his ass before he "strikes" you. You don't have to run away but you can if you want to. If you can run near some witnesses before you shoot him it would probably be better for you in the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #909 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou mention Zimmerman in this case. I thought the current tangent was trying to justify Travis' attack - i.e., the kid was justified in attacking based just on Zimmerman taunting him. I was trying to figure out how the stand your ground law deals with somebody being taunted into a fight. Actually quite seperate from this particular incident, though that did give rise to the question. If I taunt somebody into a fight by telling him how good his sisters pussy was and then kill him since I feared for my life, would this law protect that type of behaviour? Well, once you've shot him dead then he can't testify to your words or actions but you can testify that he was physically threatening you, so... Again, to relate this back to the original crime, we don't know what words Zimmerman or Martin uttered, or who took the first steps towards the other one, who raised or threw a fist first, etc."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #910 April 4, 2012 http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf I did not see this as already posted, I may have missed it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #911 April 4, 2012 ...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #912 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteSad to think how short the attention span is over something like this. something like what? Mirage - read it again - you missed the joke and answered seriously oooooh - shiny ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #913 April 4, 2012 Quote...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Wrong thread there Sparky. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #914 April 4, 2012 Quote>>Reasonable belief can be due to words alone. >Not according to Florida law, and not according to any State law in any >place I have ever lived. So if someone - someone who you know to have a history of violence - starts running after you, yelling "I have a knife and I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" you have to wait until he strikes you before you can defend yourself? ??? In what universe does "running after you with a knife" = "words alone" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #915 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuote...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Wrong thread there Sparky. Matt I thought this was the thread about racism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #916 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Wrong thread there Sparky. Matt I thought this was the thread about racism. No, I think you're the only one trying to make it that. This is a thread about a shooting in Florida. At least, until none-facts, knee jerk reactions, and misapplied "logic", got introduced. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #917 April 4, 2012 QuoteI thought this was the thread about racism. Like usual, you're mistaken.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #918 April 4, 2012 Quote So if a guy is saying he is going to kill you... That is not enough for you to start a physical altercation.... EVER. But, if he is saying he is going to kill you and there is reasonable belief that he has the ability to hurt you... Now you can legally defend yourself. well, that was clear as mud. Your first sentence says there's no circumstance. And immediately thereafter, you say: "But if....." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #919 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Wrong thread there Sparky. Matt I thought this was the thread about racism. No, I think you're the only one trying to make it that. This is a thread about a shooting in Florida. At least, until none-facts, knee jerk reactions, and misapplied "logic", got introduced. Matt This is a thread about an unarmed black kid who was shot dead - and because he was black - his murder wasn't investigated properly. In fact it now appears that there was police collusion in letting the white killer go free. This case is all about racism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #920 April 4, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...New legislation across the US could have a huge impact on the country's 2012 presidential elections. Largely Republican politicians have passed a range of new voting laws that groups fear could disenfranchise as many as five million American voters this year. Politicians claim that they are concerned about preventing voter fraud but minority communities see the civil rights gained in the 1960s as being under attack again in a subtler way. The department of justice has already made strong rulings against laws that have been passed in South Carolina and Texas because they discriminate against minorities... Wrong thread there Sparky. Matt I thought this was the thread about racism. No, I think you're the only one trying to make it that. This is a thread about a shooting in Florida. At least, until none-facts, knee jerk reactions, and misapplied "logic", got introduced. Matt This is a thread about an unarmed black kid who was shot dead - and because he was blackNot a fact, just an emotional response. - his murder wasn't investigated properlyThe partial report seems to contradict this. In fact it now appears that there was police collusion in letting the white killer go freeThe Prosecutor over ruled the Police, they arrested him on a Manslaughter Charge-if I read the Partial Report correctly. This case is all about racismOnly because some one wants it to be, not because it is actually so.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #921 April 4, 2012 >The Prosecutor over ruled the Police, they arrested him on a >Manslaughter Charge-if I read the Partial Report correctly. That's the odd thing. They say they did not arrest him at all, but I agree with you on what the report seems to say. (One of the reasons, I think, that the FBI is investigating what happened.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #922 April 4, 2012 Let's let the FBI investigation into this possibly being a race crime complete before we make any claims on that, eh? This case has nothing to do with race. Minority murders happen all the time - why is this one "special"? For what it's worth, there have been repeated shootings and a few murders almost daily since this whole ruckus started. Interesting we aren't seeing any civil rallies over those dead kids. At least the Publix plane crash has taken away the constant helicopters overhead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #923 April 4, 2012 ...CNN host Don Lemon is not apologizing for his extensive coverage of the Trayvon Martin case — especially to the many racists who have bombarded him with tweets due to the coverage. Lemon directed viewers this past Sunday to refrain from sending him incendiary tweets. "Please don't send me any more tweets that by having this conversation, I'm a racist or a race-baiter," he said. "This is a conversation we all need to have, so relax on that."... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #924 April 4, 2012 QuoteLet's let the FBI investigation into this possibly being a race crime complete before we make any claims on that, eh? This case has nothing to do with race. How do you know that? Did the neighborhood vigilante hassle white kids in oxford shirts walking through the community carrying groceries?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #925 April 4, 2012 Did the neighborhood vigilante hassle white kids in oxford shirts walking through the community carrying groceries? Do YOU KNOW that he didnt?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
