Florida Teen Shot

[mirage62 0]

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I don't much care if FOX News has a short attention span, as long as the people who matter (the investigators) pay attention. And that looks like that's happening.

Bill you realize that CNN and the rest have the same "short attention span. Interesting that you would pick out FOX though.......

I do agree that the investigators paying attention is the important part.

IF and I still think it's a big IF (but not as big as a week ago) Zimmerman is innocent of a crime I believe he is guilty of gross lack of common sense.... with what THREE agencys investigating what are the odds of all THREE agreeing on a conclusion?

Watch Jesse Jackson, if he leaves the area thats the signal that the story is over.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 2,991]

>Bill you realize that CNN and the rest have the same "short attention span.

Of course.

>with what THREE agencys investigating what are the odds of all THREE
>agreeing on a conclusion?

Fortunately they don't have to. Even if he's indicted, one jury will decide his guilt or innocence.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So someone leak the arrest report?

So now the T.M. will have to say the cops were in on it because it sure seems that the report backs up Zimmerman. (head wounds, bloody nose)

The T.M. side can also point out (truthfully) that these reports are being leaked.

the leaks may be coming from the same guys (cops) that felt that Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. Which blunts the notion that the police are doing the cover up.

[mnealtx 0]

I'm sure Jackson, Sharpton and the DOJ will be right on this hate crime:

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Mr. Watts said one of the boys delivered a single blow to the back of his head during the incident Saturday, knocking the victim to the ground.

At one point, the victim recalled being lifted from the ground so one of the boys could "drop-kick" him in the chest.

One boy, he said, put his foot on the back of the victim's neck, with another shouting, "Kill him."

While Mr. Watts was down the boys kicked him, over and over, shouting, "[Get] that white [man]. This is for Trayvon ... Trayvon lives, white [man]. Kill that white [man]," according to a police report.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[devildog 0]

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You mention Zimmerman in this case. I thought the current tangent was trying to justify Travis' attack - i.e., the kid was justified in attacking based just on Zimmerman taunting him.

I was trying to figure out how the stand your ground law deals with somebody being taunted into a fight. Actually quite seperate from this particular incident, though that did give rise to the question.

If I taunt somebody into a fight by telling him how good his sisters pussy was and then kill him since I feared for my life, would this law protect that type of behaviour?

When I did my CC class, the instructor (former detective) told a story similar to this and that you would not be protected. Basically, a guy called another guy over to his house knowing he could incite the guy to violence with words, and then when the guy swung on him at his door step, he shot and killed him. Shooter was ultimately arrested and went to jail.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[kallend 2,027]

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A vigilante is a private individual (or (pl.) group of individuals) who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.

Sorry, your attempt to relabel him fails, unless yet again you're assuming facts not yet established.

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Shooting an unarmed person dead is generally extralegal, in defiance of existing law. He may well get away with it, though.

Shooting someone who is already attacking you with deadly force is not - something you keep conveniently forgetting.

Not forgetting anything. It remains to be seen if Z is telling the truth.

You're already convinced he's a vigilante, so forgive me if I have a less than lively confidence in the ability of any further evidence to sway you.

You are convinced he's telling the truth.

I am doubtful of any of the "he said she said" statements by the players and their friends and neighbors.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mirage62 0]

Bill I was refering ti the fact that if he isn't arrested and ONE if the three investigating agency's doesn't agree than it will not be accepted by the TM group - same I guess for the Z group.

Certainly if he is arrested and doesnt go to jail the TM group will never accept that as fair or correct.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 2,991]

>Bill I was refering ti the fact that if he isn't arrested and ONE if the three
>investigating agency's doesn't agree than it will not be accepted by the TM
>group - same I guess for the Z group.

That's probably true. Fortunately only the justice system has final say as to what happens to him legally.

[mnealtx 0]

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A vigilante is a private individual (or (pl.) group of individuals) who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.

Sorry, your attempt to relabel him fails, unless yet again you're assuming facts not yet established.

.
Shooting an unarmed person dead is generally extralegal, in defiance of existing law. He may well get away with it, though.

Shooting someone who is already attacking you with deadly force is not - something you keep conveniently forgetting.

Not forgetting anything. It remains to be seen if Z is telling the truth.

You're already convinced he's a vigilante, so forgive me if I have a less than lively confidence in the ability of any further evidence to sway you.

You are convinced he's telling the truth.

Telepathy fail.

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I am doubtful of any of the "he said she said" statements by the players and their friends and neighbors.

I have a less than lively confidence in the ability of any further evidence to sway you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[muff528 3]

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If anyone in this case is to be the victim of vigilante justice it will be Zimmerman. He has effectively already been condemned by members of two of the three co-equal branches of the Federal Government and will likely be tried and convicted (but not of murder or manslaughter) by the third. (just a prediction)

he may be tried (unlikely), but unless there's a lot more evidence being kept under wraps, not a chance of conviction in a court of law, versus a court of public opinion.

Well, the Feds won't try him for murder or such. That's a local issue and there may not be enough to indict him ...much less get it to trial. Getting him for "violating TM's civil rights" is right up the Fed's alley and might be the "compromise" bone that gets thrown to the crowds with the pitchforks and torches to appease them. Won't be enough, though.

[mnealtx 0]

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Well, the Feds won't try him for murder or such. That's a local issue and there may not be enough to indict him ...much less get it to trial. Getting him for "violating TM's civil rights" is right up the Fed's alley and might be the "compromise" bone that gets thrown to the crowds with the pitchforks and torches to appease them. Won't be enough, though.

That's going to be a tough row to hoe, as well, seeing as how Zimmerman evidently was the one that published flyers demanding that Justin Collison (son of police Lt. Chris Collison) be punished for attacking Sherman Ware - a homeless black man. (link)

Certainly odd that the MSM hasn't picked this up yet, what with how important the Martin case is....right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[muff528 3]

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Well, the Feds won't try him for murder or such. That's a local issue and there may not be enough to indict him ...much less get it to trial. Getting him for "violating TM's civil rights" is right up the Fed's alley and might be the "compromise" bone that gets thrown to the crowds with the pitchforks and torches to appease them. Won't be enough, though.

That's going to be a tough row to hoe, as well, seeing as how Zimmerman evidently was the one that published flyers demanding that Justin Collison (son of police Lt. Chris Collison) be punished for attacking Sherman Ware - a homeless black man. (link)

Certainly odd that the MSM hasn't picked this up yet, what with how important the Martin case is....right?

Doesn't matter. The pressure to "get" him would be too great. Members of the US House of Representatives are even now sponsoring a freaking Resolution blaming racial bias in the case accusing Z of profiling. "Whereas Zimmerman's unfounded assumptions and racial bias led to the use of deadly force …". Tried and convicted as far as they're concerned. Put a fork in him ...he's done. (one way or another)

[kelpdiver 2]

congressional resolutions are words, not sticks and stones. And Congress passes them when they fail to get what they really want.

[mirage62 0]

Last night I heard an interview with Zimmerman’s Dad. His claim was that his son – AFTER saying “Ok” to the dispatcher when told not to follow T.M. – continued to walk in the same direction he was walking when he lost T.M. His reasoning was to get the address of an apartment to tell the police where to go. ONCE he got that he reversed direction to head back to the car and ran into T.M.

To me that slightly weakens Zimmerman’s case.

He apparently did not stop and return directly to his car. Of course this is not proof but the fact that the father is telling the story and that Zimmerman’s lawyers were there indicates that this is what they will state later – if it goes to trial.

The lawyers did say that there was ample physical evidence to back up Zimmerman’s story. So far unless you are a conspiracy person the physical evidence seems to be supporting Z’s story.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mirage62 0]

Last night I heard an interview with Zimmerman’s Dad. His claim was that his son – AFTER saying “Ok” to the dispatcher when told not to follow T.M. – continued to walk in the same direction he was walking when he lost T.M. His reasoning was to get the address of an apartment to tell the police where to go. ONCE he got that he reversed direction to head back to the car and ran into T.M.

To me that slightly weakens Zimmerman’s case.

He apparently did not stop and return directly to his car. Of course this is not proof but the fact that the father is telling the story and that Zimmerman’s lawyers were there indicates that this is what they will state later – if it goes to trial.

The lawyers did say that there was ample physical evidence to back up Zimmerman’s story. So far unless you are a conspiracy person the physical evidence seems to be supporting Z’s story.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[wlsc 0]

That 'broken nose' will be nicely healed.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Got the hiccups?

[mirage62 0]

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That 'broken nose' will be nicely healed.

Yeah about like the head wound that wasn't there but turned out to be there.

In the end if the nose wasn't broke it will come out. Broken noses don't bleed forever, they don't always result in a lot of visible damage.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[livendive 8]

I only drop in here occasinally and am not going to read 39 pages of whatever's already been said, I'll just quickly post my opinion.

I have my CCL and firmly believe in a right to vigorous self-defense. The stand-your-ground policy in Florida sounds good on the surface to me, but it seems to have a flaw...there should be some limits on which ground you can stand. If you're in my house and I ask you to leave, you shouldn't have the right to shoot me when I threaten to forcibly throw you out. Even if we accept everything this Zimmerman guy said as truthful, he wasn't *standing his ground*, he was intruding on the deceased's. Regardless of color, if I'm walking through a neighborhood and someone starts staring at me suspiciously, I have the option of ignoring him, fleeing, or fighting. By all accounts, the deceased started running, and Zimmerman chased him. If I'm in that situation...running from some creepy dude and he starts running after me, you're damn right I accept that flight is not a good option, and I turn around to fight. At this point, I'm the one standing my ground, it's the chaser (working against 911 operator direction) who is the aggressor. The law doesn't (or shouldn't) work in such a mannner that I can antagonize, antagonize, antagonize, and then shoot you when you resist. Zimmerman provoked by giving chase, without any reason whatsoever, and then chose that ground to stand? BS imo.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Gravitymaster 0]

You should read the thread. That's not what was reported as happening.

[livendive 8]

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That 'broken nose' will be nicely healed.

Yeah about like the head wound that wasn't there but turned out to be there.

In the end if the nose wasn't broke it will come out. Broken noses don't bleed forever, they don't always result in a lot of visible damage.

I don't understand why a minor head/nose injury is all that important. He was stalking a guy who was doing nothing wrong, and that guy punched him...a reasonable response.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Another scenario:

Zimmerman began following the kid.
They exchange words.
The kid approaches Zimmerman unaware he is armed.
They exchange more words
The kid swings and hits Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground.
The kid jumps on top of Zimmerman and begins punching him.
Zimmerman escapes and the kid comes towards him again.
Zimmerman pulls his gun and fires.

I don't know if this is what happened. It is an alternative theory just as valid as anything else that has been claimed.

Based on the 911 transcript and the girlfriend's account of her call with the deceased, I think lawrocket's version is probably more accurate. That said, even if you've got it exactly right, the ground Zimmerman should have stood was back in his car. Everything else that happened was a direct result of his choosing to follow a kid who was doing nothing wrong.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[wlsc 0]

Nothing wrong - apart from being black. The contention is that if Trayvon had been white Zimmerman wouldn't have followed him. If Trayvon had been white the police wouldn't have tagged him as a john doe and Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged.

[skypuppy 1]

Everything else that happened was a direct result of his choosing to follow a kid who was doing nothing wrong.

Doesn;t give the kid the right to physically attack him. The kid didn't own the ground there, either.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Another scenario:

Zimmerman began following the kid.
They exchange words.
The kid approaches Zimmerman unaware he is armed.
They exchange more words
The kid swings and hits Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground.
The kid jumps on top of Zimmerman and begins punching him.
Zimmerman escapes and the kid comes towards him again.
Zimmerman pulls his gun and fires.

I don't know if this is what happened. It is an alternative theory just as valid as anything else that has been claimed.

Based on the 911 transcript and the girlfriend's account of her call with the deceased, I think lawrocket's version is probably more accurate. That said, even if you've got it exactly right, the ground Zimmerman should have stood was back in his car. Everything else that happened was a direct result of his choosing to follow a kid who was doing nothing wrong.

Blues,
Dave

The latest accounts are that Zimmerman was only trying to see where the kid went. He was not stalking him or looking for a confrontation. He apparently had returned to his truck when he was attacked, according to some reports.