Florida Teen Shot

[wlsc 0]

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Another scenario:

Zimmerman began following the kid.
They exchange words.
The kid approaches Zimmerman unaware he is armed.
They exchange more words
The kid swings and hits Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground.
The kid jumps on top of Zimmerman and begins punching him.
Zimmerman escapes and the kid comes towards him again.
Zimmerman pulls his gun and fires.

I don't know if this is what happened. It is an alternative theory just as valid as anything else that has been claimed.

Based on the 911 transcript and the girlfriend's account of her call with the deceased, I think lawrocket's version is probably more accurate. That said, even if you've got it exactly right, the ground Zimmerman should have stood was back in his car. Everything else that happened was a direct result of his choosing to follow a kid who was doing nothing wrong.

Blues,
Dave

The latest accounts are that Zimmerman was only trying to see where the kid went. He was not stalking him or looking for a confrontation. He apparently had returned to his truck when he was attacked, according to some reports.

According to his dad. Who wasn't there.

[mnealtx 0]

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I only drop in here occasinally and am not going to read 39 pages of whatever's already been said, I'll just quickly post my opinion.

I have my CCL and firmly believe in a right to vigorous self-defense. The stand-your-ground policy in Florida sounds good on the surface to me, but it seems to have a flaw...there should be some limits on which ground you can stand. If you're in my house and I ask you to leave, you shouldn't have the right to shoot me when I threaten to forcibly throw you out.

SYG is actually the reverse of that, so you're good.

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Even if we accept everything this Zimmerman guy said as truthful, he wasn't *standing his ground*, he was intruding on the deceased's.

No, he wasn't - you should read the Florida law.

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Regardless of color, if I'm walking through a neighborhood and someone starts staring at me suspiciously, I have the option of ignoring him, fleeing, or fighting. By all accounts, the deceased started running, and Zimmerman chased him.

And then Zimmerman lost sight of him, as evidenced by the 911 call log.

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If I'm in that situation...running from some creepy dude and he starts running after me, you're damn right I accept that flight is not a good option, and I turn around to fight. At this point, I'm the one standing my ground, it's the chaser (working against 911 operator direction) who is the aggressor.

Except your scenario doesn't match what appears to have been the case, given the 911 transcript.

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The law doesn't (or shouldn't) work in such a mannner that I can antagonize, antagonize, antagonize, and then shoot you when you resist. Zimmerman provoked by giving chase, without any reason whatsoever, and then chose that ground to stand? BS imo.

Nope - again, you need to do some more reading - your scenario isn't matching up.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[livendive 8]

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The latest accounts are that Zimmerman was only trying to see where the kid went. He was not stalking him or looking for a confrontation. He apparently had returned to his truck when he was attacked, according to some reports.

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Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Sh*t he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*ck*ng [unintelligible, sounds like “coons” but could be something else]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah

It seems pretty clear to me that he pursued, rather than "stand his ground".

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

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The latest accounts are that Zimmerman was only trying to see where the kid went. He was not stalking him or looking for a confrontation. He apparently had returned to his truck when he was attacked, according to some reports.

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Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Sh*t he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*ck*ng [unintelligible, sounds like “coons” but could be something else]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah

It seems pretty clear to me that he pursued, rather than "stand his ground".

Blues,
Dave

And then he lost sight of him, *neither* occurrence having ONE SINGLE THING to do with stand your ground.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mirage62 0]

Dave, the way your laying it out I would agree with (mostly) it just seems that it didn't happen that way. BUT ONLY by what is beiong reported.

I think the real pisser on this will be that there doesn't seem to be any eye witnesses that saw the entire thing.

Following someone is not illegal that I know of for whatever reason. Punching someone in the nose and bashing there head on the ground is.

We just don't know enough facts IMO to make a call.

This entire thing captured my interest in watching how the press handled it, along with the black community leaders.

As of now I believe that Zimmerman at the least used very poor judgement.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[livendive 8]

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And then he lost sight of him, *neither* occurrence having ONE SINGLE THING to do with stand your ground.

Sure it does, as SYG is the reason he wasn't arrested. The story coming out of Zimmerman's camp is that he was attacked by the deceased for no good reason and he reacted with deadly force. The story coming out of the family who lost a kid is that he shot Martin without provocation. Neither story rings particularly true. My favorite parts of the transcript are when Zimmerman bitches about Martin holding something and staring at him. What, he noticed this out of his peripheral vision? Or was he staring at Martin while talking to 911 about him? Of course the subject of his scrutiny is going to stare back. Then he complains that these guys "always get away"...maybe that's because he constantly calls 911 on people who are doing nothing wrong!

In any case, at some point Martins's girlfriend makes it clear to him that being scrutinized by a stranger talking on a phone while WWB in a gated community is bad juju. She tells him to leave, so he starts walking away and Zimmerman follows. She tells him to run, he does, Zimmerman relays this to the 911 operator and gives chase. The 911 operator tells him to stop, and at some point (5 seconds? 30 seconds? later, he does). Outside of freaking out and calling 911 over someone doing nothing wrong, this was Zimmerman's big mistake. He had zero reason to pursue. The effect of this choice is clear...you put Martin into fight or flight mode. Granted, when he stops chasing, presumably Martin recognizes it. That said, fight or flight doesn't abate nearly as quickly as it triggers. I've had the leg shakes / adrenaline crash thing delayed as much as an hour after a fight, although more common is just a few to maybe 15 minutes later. The smart, rational choice for Martin at this point would be to recognize the escape opportunity and take it. Of course his blood his up, adrenaline's still pumping, so cool, calm decisions are not his specialty at the moment. Instead, he switches from flight to fight...a mistake on his part that costs him his life.

Bottom line: Two young men (one still a child, legally speaking) made some poor decisions. One of them got a broken nose out of it, after which he killed the other one. Do I think race is a factor? Not really. It does seem that Zimmerman was racist, but I doubt he was out to kill a negro. In fact I doubt he planned on killing anyone at all. However I also don't think his actions were completely innocent. He provoked the situation and helped escalate it to the point that violence broke out. Is he guilty of manslaughter? I think that's a very good question for a jury to answer. In my opinion, the stand-your-ground principle went out the window when he started chasing the other guy.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

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And then he lost sight of him, *neither* occurrence having ONE SINGLE THING to do with stand your ground.

Sure it does, as SYG is the reason he wasn't arrested. The story coming out of Zimmerman's camp is that he was attacked by the deceased for no good reason and he reacted with deadly force. The story coming out of the family who lost a kid is that he shot Martin without provocation. Neither story rings particularly true. My favorite parts of the transcript are when Zimmerman bitches about Martin holding something and staring at him.

Bitching? Yeah, that's some GREAT objectivity there, Dave.

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What, he noticed this out of his peripheral vision? Or was he staring at Martin while talking to 911 about him? Of course the subject of his scrutiny is going to stare back. Then he complains that these guys "always get away"...maybe that's because he constantly calls 911 on people who are doing nothing wrong!

Speaking of 'stories not ringing particularly true', maybe you should re-read your last sentence there, Chief.

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In any case, at some point Martins's girlfriend makes it clear to him that being scrutinized by a stranger talking on a phone while WWB in a gated community is bad juju.

Got a transcript of that, so we can see if it 'rings true'?

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She tells him to leave, so he starts walking away and Zimmerman follows. She tells him to run, he does, Zimmerman relays this to the 911 operator and gives chase. The 911 operator tells him to stop, and at some point (5 seconds? 30 seconds? later, he does).

And subsequently loses sight of Martin, thus ending that confrontation.

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Outside of freaking out and calling 911 over someone doing nothing wrong

Is that your professional legal opinion, Investigator?

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He had zero reason to pursue. The effect of this choice is clear...you put Martin into fight or flight mode. Granted, when he stops chasing, presumably Martin recognizes it. That said, fight or flight doesn't abate nearly as quickly as it triggers. I've had the leg shakes / adrenaline crash thing delayed as much as an hour after a fight, although more common is just a few to maybe 15 minutes later. The smart, rational choice for Martin at this point would be to recognize the escape opportunity and take it.

Agreed, on the 'smart, rational choice'.

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Of course his blood his up, adrenaline's still pumping, so cool, calm decisions are not his specialty at the moment. Instead, he switches from flight to fight...a mistake on his part that costs him his life.

So you admit that once Martin breaks the engagement by running, the further actions were all on his own hook? There's hope for you yet.

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Bottom line: Two young men (one still a child, legally speaking) made some poor decisions. One of them got a broken nose out of it, after which he killed the other one. Do I think race is a factor? Not really. It does seem that Zimmerman was racist, but I doubt he was out to kill a negro.

Scanning up the thread will lead you to a post where Zimmerman was putting out flyers in support of a black man that was beaten by the son of a white police officer.

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In fact I doubt he planned on killing anyone at all.

Agreed.

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However I also don't think his actions were completely innocent. He provoked the situation and helped escalate it to the point that violence broke out.

No - Martin did that when he circled back to confront Zimmerman.

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Is he guilty of manslaughter? I think that's a very good question for a jury to answer. In my opinion, the stand-your-ground principle went out the window when he started chasing the other guy.

Since you keep mis-characterizing SYG, allow me to add to your knowledge:
"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

SYG doesn't come into play UNTIL violence is offered. Even had SYG *not* been passed, Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force since he had no way to further retreat; his back was literally "against the wall (ground)".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[livendive 8]

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that Zimmerman chasing Martin was wrong and could very easily be considered a threat? And how do you decide that there are two separate incidents? *IF* Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, what makes you think Martin lost sight of Zimmerman? And how many minutes have to pass before one behaviour is forgiven and the other becomes a separate incident? Something less than three, obviously. Assuming you've been in that mode at some point in your life, you have to understand that you can't turn it off like that. As an adult it gets a bit easier, but it's still not a light switch, much less at 17.

The girlfriend relayed her side of the conversation with Martin weeks ago, actually before the 911 transcript was released, if I remember correctly. It matched up well with 911 transcript, including the running/chasing thing.

I'll admit that I got the thing about Zimmerman making a silly number of 911 calls from this thread, and didn't verify it. As with anything else on dz.com, that makes it suspect in and of itself. If he didn't actually make a habit of trying to save the world from non-criminals, mea culpa.

Edit: Here's a theory that correllates the two phone conversations (Martin's and Zimmerman's). It implies pretty clearly that Zimmerman did quit chasing Martin as directed by the 911 operator, but a couple minutes later Martin approached him, asked why he was following him, he denied it, but then chased him *again*, this time directly into the physical confrontation.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

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Why do you refuse to acknowledge that Zimmerman chasing Martin was wrong and could very easily be considered a threat?

Where did I say he was in the right?

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And how do you decide that there are two separate incidents?

Because Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, ending the first incident.

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*IF* Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, what makes you think Martin lost sight of Zimmerman?

Zimmerman losing sight of Martin is evidenced in the 911 transcript - you know, the part where he starts to give his address, then says "I don't know where this kid is".

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And how many minutes have to pass before one behaviour is forgiven and the other becomes a separate incident?

Why does there have to be a time limit vs. withdrawing from contact?

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Something less than three, obviously.

Why?

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Assuming you've been in that mode at some point in your life, you have to understand that you can't turn it off like that. As an adult it gets a bit easier, but it's still not a light switch, much less at 17.

It's very hard to STOP running once you've started - that's why the syndrome is called "Flight OR Fight". Given that Martin immediately returned to confront Zimmerman, he evidently wasn't all *that* scared.

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The girlfriend relayed her side of the conversation with Martin weeks ago, actually before the 911 transcript was released, if I remember correctly. It matched up well with 911 transcript, including the running/chasing thing.

And the bit about Martin 'teaching this guy a lesson'?

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I'll admit that I got the thing about Zimmerman making a silly number of 911 calls from this thread, and didn't verify it.

Zimmerman had made 46 calls over the last 8 years. The community has also had a rash of break-ins shortly before the incident.

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As with anything else on dz.com, that makes it suspect in and of itself. If he didn't actually make a habit of trying to save the world from non-criminals, mea culpa.

Maybe you should have read up more about Zimmerman and the recent crimes instead of immediately assuming that he was 'trying to save the world from non-criminals'.

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Edit: Here's a theory that correllates the two phone conversations (Martin's and Zimmerman's). It implies pretty clearly that Zimmerman did quit chasing Martin as directed by the 911 operator, but a couple minutes later Martin approached him, asked why he was following him, he denied it, but then chased him *again*, this time directly into the physical confrontation.

Looks like some pretty large stretches in the account at your link. Why would he need to chase Martin *again*? All Zimmerman has to do at that point is keep him talking and wait for the police to show up. The second chase also doesn't mesh with the scuffle at the end of the g/f's call.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wlsc 0]

Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

[wlsc 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

No work for you then.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

and that would do what exactly for the election? Is pointing out that the system is evil and racist an effective way to get non voters to vote? I don't see it.

We're in April. No chance we'd see a trial by August unless they jail him, and even then I don't think his attorney would want to rush into it unprepared.

But these arguments are irrelevant. I got a $20 bill that says there will never be a trial. And a $10 bill that says he's never even charged.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

No work for you then.

If you are calling me a racist, you can kiss my ass.

[Gravitymaster 0]

If, there is a trial, the Dems will use it to stimulate voter apathy. They need to give people a reason to go to the polls.

[wlsc 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

and that would do what exactly for the election? Is pointing out that the system is evil and racist an effective way to get non voters to vote? I don't see it.

We're in April. No chance we'd see a trial by August unless they jail him, and even then I don't think his attorney would want to rush into it unprepared.

But these arguments are irrelevant. I got a $20 bill that says there will never be a trial. And a $10 bill that says he's never even charged.

If this happens the Occupy movement will take up the slack.

[mnealtx 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

and that would do what exactly for the election? Is pointing out that the system is evil and racist an effective way to get non voters to vote? I don't see it.

We're in April. No chance we'd see a trial by August unless they jail him, and even then I don't think his attorney would want to rush into it unprepared.

But these arguments are irrelevant. I got a $20 bill that says there will never be a trial. And a $10 bill that says he's never even charged.

If this happens the Occupy movement will take up the slack.

So, you support vigilantism?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wlsc 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

and that would do what exactly for the election? Is pointing out that the system is evil and racist an effective way to get non voters to vote? I don't see it.

We're in April. No chance we'd see a trial by August unless they jail him, and even then I don't think his attorney would want to rush into it unprepared.

But these arguments are irrelevant. I got a $20 bill that says there will never be a trial. And a $10 bill that says he's never even charged.

If this happens the Occupy movement will take up the slack.

So, you support vigilantism?

Hippies are usually quite peaceful. Flower Power and all that.

[mnealtx 0]

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Only a few more days and they reel him in. Trial will be August time?

Yep, just in time for the elections so the Dems can demagogue the trial to stir up racial anomosity.

and that would do what exactly for the election? Is pointing out that the system is evil and racist an effective way to get non voters to vote? I don't see it.

We're in April. No chance we'd see a trial by August unless they jail him, and even then I don't think his attorney would want to rush into it unprepared.

But these arguments are irrelevant. I got a $20 bill that says there will never be a trial. And a $10 bill that says he's never even charged.

If this happens the Occupy movement will take up the slack.

So, you support vigilantism?

Hippies are usually quite peaceful. Flower Power and all that.

Well, what "slack" are the Occu-poopers going to "take up", then?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Southern_Man 0]

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If, there is a trial, the Dems will use it to stimulate voter apathy. They need to give people a reason to go to the polls.

I don't think these sentences mean what you think they mean.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[mnealtx 0]

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If, there is a trial, the Dems will use it to stimulate voter apathy. They need to give people a reason to go to the polls.

I don't think these sentences mean what you think they mean.

So substitute 'overcome' for 'stimulate'. I think it's pretty obvious what his point was...that the Dems will use any trail to stir up the voters and get them to the polls.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,991]

Your one warning.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If, there is a trial, the Dems will use it to stimulate voter apathy. They need to give people a reason to go to the polls.

I don't think these sentences mean what you think they mean.

So substitute 'overcome' for 'stimulate'. I think it's pretty obvious what his point was...that the Dems will use any trail to stir up the voters and get them to the polls.

it's still fails any sort of logic.

Obama: Black voters, see how bad our government is...the cops let this honky get away with murdering one of our lads. Participate in government to fix this.

angry black voters: huh? You want us to help you assholes kill even more of us? Why did you let him get away, you uncle Tom. fuck you, I'm not voting.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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If, there is a trial, the Dems will use it to stimulate voter apathy. They need to give people a reason to go to the polls.

I don't think these sentences mean what you think they mean.

So substitute 'overcome' for 'stimulate'. I think it's pretty obvious what his point was...that the Dems will use any trail to stir up the voters and get them to the polls.

it's still fails any sort of logic.

Obama: Black voters, see how bad our government is...the cops let this honky get away with murdering one of our lads. Participate in government to fix this.

angry black voters: huh? You want us to help you assholes kill even more of us? Why did you let him get away, you uncle Tom. fuck you, I'm not voting.

More like:

Democrats: "If Republicans are elected, more black teenagers will be murdered and their killers will get away with it".

They are already predicting more people will die in tornados, old people will starve to death etc if Republicans are elected..

[muff528 3]

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congressional resolutions are words, not sticks and stones. And Congress passes them when they fail to get what they really want.

This call for a Resolution is no small thing. These are words intended to incite. These words are from the very people who write the laws in a nation that is governed by law. With the acknowledgement that there are some exceptions, most of them are not morons. They are smart enough to understand the fallout from such a disgusting, prejudiced "Resolution". These are people who are among the highest office holders in the land and they intentionally and knowingly undermined one of the most sacred tenets of our justice system. And, as a result, there is now no reasonable chance for a fair trial for Zimmerman if one were to take place. They have knowingly and intentionally thrown down the gauntlet and effectively issued a call to arms from the highest levels of representation if it is determined that Z need not stand trial based on actual evidence. They have already decreed his guilt and are now sending a warning down from on high for those investigating this case to play ball. Right or wrong Z is already dead. This hateful resolution is either one of the most dispicable travesties ever issued from the House or it is one of the most blaring examples of incompetence and pure lack of civics knowledge by those members.