Florida Teen Shot

[rushmc 23]

DanG

Quote

And I am basing my opinion on the eveidence presented during the trial and before
Evidence that from the very beginning backed up GZ's version of what happened

There is absolutely no evidence (besides Zimmerman's unsworn statements) about how the fight started. None.

Phone calls, police recordings and testimony regarding who was on top and who was getting the shit beat out of them infers a version of what happened

Strongly infers

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Quote

Phone calls, police recordings and testimony regarding who was on top and who was getting the shit beat out of them infers a version of what happened

Strongly infers

All of that evidence speaks to how the fight ended up. It says not one iota, inferred or not, about how the fight started.

- Dan G

[davjohns 1]

OK. I'll try your side of the fence.

TM has recently been involved in street fighting. He has been involved in drugs. But we'll pretend he's a peaceful kid.

TM notices he is being followed. He loses his follower. He circles around to confront his follower. He tells his friend on the phone he's being followed by "some crazy-ass cracka". He reaches his follower and looks down at him. He politely asks, "I'm sorry, but your activities are spoiling my enjoyment of this fine evening. Might I inquire as to why you persist in observing my evening respite?"

GZ suddenly begins to pummel TM's fists with his face. With one hand, he pulls TM over on top of him. With the other, he draws his pistol. On his way down, he realizes it will look better if he is bleeding, so he intentionally blows his judo breakfall to hit his head on the concrete. TM cries out as GZ's weight pulls TM to the ground. GZ fires.

You are absolutely correct that nobody knows for sure how the fight started. All we have is the evidence before us that gives us inference. If GZ thought he was going to shoot someone, he really should not have called the police and expressed frustration with criminals first. If TM was peaceful, he really should have called the police or just walked home. If one of them held a racial bias toward the other, it would appear to be TM. TM's injuries were consistent with an assault. GZ's injuries were consistent with being assaulted.

There is no way to know for sure how it started. That is exactly why the prosecution never had enough evidence to bring a case. Given the facts we do have and the statement of the survivor, there was never any real case.

You are right that we do not know beyond a reasonable doubt who threw the first punch. Fortunate for GZ that he did not have to prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[OHCHUTE 0]

DanG

Quote

And I am basing my opinion on the eveidence presented during the trial and before
Evidence that from the very beginning backed up GZ's version of what happened

There is absolutely no evidence (besides Zimmerman's unsworn statements) about how the fight started. None.

There's a difference between insult and injury. You can't be charged with a crime for insulting someone. Following someone, although might be considered injurious to character or being, is not a crime. Breaking someones jaw is a crime and it makes no difference who provoked the altercation. The jaw was broken, the assault happened, and Zimmerman took defensive action according to his right under the THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN.

[DanG 1]

Quote

TM notices he is being followed. He loses his follower. He circles around to confront his follower. He tells his friend on the phone he's being followed by "some crazy-ass cracka". He reaches his follower and looks down at him. He politely asks, "I'm sorry, but your activities are spoiling my enjoyment of this fine evening. Might I inquire as to why you persist in observing my evening respite?"

GZ suddenly begins to pummel TM's fists with his face. With one hand, he pulls TM over on top of him. With the other, he draws his pistol. On his way down, he realizes it will look better if he is bleeding, so he intentionally blows his judo breakfall to hit his head on the concrete. TM cries out as GZ's weight pulls TM to the ground. GZ fires.

Very cute.

I think a more likely POSSIBLE scenario is that Martin, who was not a peaceful kid, but apparently a punk and thug, was approached by Zimmerman and asked what he was doing in the neighborhood. Martin would probably have told Zimerman to fuck himself, perhaps even used a racial slur. In his anger at being insulted Zimmerman might have shoved, slapped, or otherwise initiated physical contact. He then proceeded to get his ass handed to him.

That's a possible scenario, and obviously much more likely than your little farce.

I'd also like to point out that's it's entirely consistent with the limited evidence, except Zimmerman's unsworn statements.

- Dan G

[davjohns 1]

I whole heartedly agree with your statement. No issues at all.

Now...how about what is PROBABLE? I think it is more probable that TM started it. If someone came up with video to prove GZ started it, I wouldn't be shocked. Your event timeline is perfectly reasonable as well. I just think the evidence before us says it was TM.

Farce? Whimsy, maybe. Satire, certainly. Farce is a little harsh, don't you think?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Now...how about what is PROBABLE? I think it is more probable that TM started it. If someone came up with video to prove GZ started it, I wouldn't be shocked. Your event timeline is perfectly reasonable as well. I just think the evidence before us says it was TM.

I can accept that. I just get my panties in a wad when people post stuff about how Martin started the fight as if it were a proven fact. I find it just as irritating when people on TV state that Zimmerman was a racist as if it is the uncontested truth.

We should all admit that the situation sucked, many lives have been ruined, and there were likely better ways of dealing with it that both parties could have chosen.

However, once Zimmerman pulled the trigger, I think he should have been arrested. And given the fact that there was conflicting evidence (although the evidence presented by the prosecution turned out to be pretty weak), that evidence should have gone before a finder of fact, namely a jury. Now that the jury has spoken, the case should be over.

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

DanG

... I think a more likely POSSIBLE scenario is that Martin, who was not a peaceful kid, but apparently a punk and thug, was approached by Zimmerman and asked what he was doing in the neighborhood. Martin would probably have told Zimerman to fuck himself, perhaps even used a racial slur. In his anger at being insulted Zimmerman might have shoved, slapped, or otherwise initiated physical contact. He then proceeded to get his ass handed to him.

That's a possible scenario, and obviously much more likely than your little farce.

I'd also like to point out that's it's entirely consistent with the limited evidence, except Zimmerman's unsworn statements.

So, in that scenario, when did Trayvon start screaming like a girl! Was it when puff-ball Zimm jumped up and bitch-slapped him or was it while he was handing Zimm's ass to him?

[normiss 801]

The way the law is written, the cops did not have sufficient evidence to arrest.
I do think they should have forwarded the case to the state attorney for the next grand jury. I also strongly believe the special prosecutor should have done that as well - that's the process - a grand jury.
Instead she swore out a possibly false affidavit.

The knee-jerk reaction and cave under civil unrest is disgusting.
It's her style though!

[DanG 1]

Quote

So, in that scenario, when did Trayvon start screaming like a girl!

Where did I say it was Martin screaming? I don't remember saying that.

Can you really not comprehend that the person starting a fight might not be the eventual winner?

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

DanG

Quote

So, in that scenario, when did Trayvon start screaming like a girl!

Where did I say it was Martin screaming? I don't remember saying that.

Can you really not comprehend that the person starting a fight might not be the eventual winner?

Just trying to see how it might fit into your theory since one of the central elements of the State's case was that TM was the one doing all the screaming.

[DanG 1]

I don't have a theory. I have reasonable doubt about who started the fight. Screaming at the end of the fight doesn't have anything to do with how the fight started.

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

DanG

I don't have a theory. I have reasonable doubt about who started the fight. Screaming at the end of the fight doesn't have anything to do with how the fight started.

OK. Not "theory" ..."scenario". My bad.

"...reasonable doubt about who started the fight." ...advantage on that point: Defendant.

[RonD1120 62]

rushmc

***

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Verdict is in. Not Guilty. All counts.

I just cannot believe it. This is unbelievable . I give it 4-5 hrs before the rioting and burning starts. GZ will never know another peaceful day in his life. I think he should've at least catch a Manslaughter charge. WowZer.
Best-
Richard

why is it unbelievable?

The evidence supported this outcome

Jumping in late because I was sans Internet 5 days. But, guess what? Many legal beagles, including liberal Alan Dershowitz, believe that the prosecuting attorney, Angela Corey, should be investigated and possibly disbarred for unethical procedure.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 23]

normiss

The way the law is written, the cops did not have sufficient evidence to arrest.
I do think they should have forwarded the case to the state attorney for the next grand jury. I also strongly believe the special prosecutor should have done that as well - that's the process - a grand jury.
Instead she swore out a possibly false affidavit.

The knee-jerk reaction and cave under civil unrest is disgusting.
It's her style though!

+1

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 362]

DanG

I don't have a theory. I have reasonable doubt about who started the fight. Screaming at the end of the fight doesn't have anything to do with how the fight started.

Dan, I've been arguing exactly the same points, and getting exactly the same response. I am in 100% agreement with you. As are some others, who (perhaps sensibly) realized you can't reason with people who can't entertain any notion beyond their own stereotypes and self-interest, and stopped posting in this thread some time ago.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[DanG 1]

Well they have been playing "I Got You Babe" every morning on the radio...

- Dan G

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

Had he taken your advise, and used a minute and a half to go to his house...

I'm curious why Martin should have just gone home, but it was perfectly fine for Zimmerman to get out of his truck and follow Martin. Granted, the confrontation would not have happened had either of them not acted as they did. But, why does "stand your ground" reasoning apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? When two people are in a place they are allowed to be, and not violating any laws, is there some super-secret rule that says who can "stand their ground" and who should back down and go home?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 23]

I didn't say he should have. I said he could have. And stand your ground has never been applicable in this situation. For either of them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skypuppy 1]

DanG

Quote

Now...how about what is PROBABLE? I think it is more probable that TM started it. If someone came up with video to prove GZ started it, I wouldn't be shocked. Your event timeline is perfectly reasonable as well. I just think the evidence before us says it was TM.

I can accept that. I just get my panties in a wad when people post stuff about how Martin started the fight as if it were a proven fact. I find it just as irritating when people on TV state that Zimmerman was a racist as if it is the uncontested truth.

We should all admit that the situation sucked, many lives have been ruined, and there were likely better ways of dealing with it that both parties could have chosen.

However, once Zimmerman pulled the trigger, I think he should have been arrested. And given the fact that there was conflicting evidence (although the evidence presented by the prosecution turned out to be pretty weak), that evidence should have gone before a finder of fact, namely a jury. Now that the jury has spoken, the case should be over.

perhaps it should have gone before a grand jury, and perhaps they should have decided there was not enuf to press charges. But it certainly shouldn't have gone to trial based on what was presented.

Perhaps if you get your panties in such a twist, you should stop reading the thread...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[ryoder 1,590]

rushmc

I didn't say he should have. I said he could have. And stand your ground has never been applicable in this situation. For either of them

EXACTLY!

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[skypuppy 1]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

Had he taken your advise, and used a minute and a half to go to his house...

I'm curious why Martin should have just gone home, but it was perfectly fine for Zimmerman to get out of his truck and follow Martin. Granted, the confrontation would not have happened had either of them not acted as they did. But, why does "stand your ground" reasoning apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? When two people are in a place they are allowed to be, and not violating any laws, is there some super-secret rule that says who can "stand their ground" and who should back down and go home?

Don

well, I would say as a long time resident, GZ had every right to investigate and report a suspicious stranger (on drugs, was what he said). And even a duty as a member of neighborhood watch. Trayvon, a guest in the area, had no such duty. And following is not violating a law - sucker-punching someone is.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[DanG 1]

Quote

Perhaps if you get your panties in such a twist, you should stop reading the thread...

Or people like you could stop posting bullshit and let a reasonable discussion among adults occur.

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

GeorgiaDon

.....When two people are in a place they are allowed to be, and not violating any laws, is there some super-secret rule that says who can "stand their ground" and who should back down and go home?

Don

Exactly the question I raised way back towards the beginning of this thread when SYG was being discussed. I think the defense pretty much abandoned the SYG aspect of self-defense early on.

[rushmc 23]

DanG

Quote

Perhaps if you get your panties in such a twist, you should stop reading the thread...

Or people like you could stop posting bullshit and let a reasonable discussion among adults occur.

or you could lead by example

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln