FreeFallFiend 0 #2901 July 11, 2013 devildog ***Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed? Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1. They were prepping for the lesser charge of manslaughter because that's what they were told to expect the entire time and was confirmed again last night. At 730AM this morning the prosecution gave notice they were going to include a lesser charge of 3rd degree murder hinging on child abuse. They then had pages and pages of very detailed case law precedent. The defense was enraged (and rightfully so) because it was obvious that the state had been planning to make this move for quite some time and didnt properly let the defense know. This is a trick because it doesnt allow the defense time to properly defend itself. The bottom line is the state knows they dont stand a chance at convicting GZ for what he was charged and being tried with so they are scrambling like hell now to include lesser charges and ridiculous jury instructions in a hail mary catch all play.Fiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2902 July 11, 2013 Except for child abuse charges, I'm sure you're correct. It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me. I still hope the jury is smart enough to see the politics here and find his not guilty no matter the charges. I think we all deserve the right to defend ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #2903 July 11, 2013 FreeFallFiend I really dont know what to say after watching this mornings proceedings. As the defense is claiming the state was VERY obviously lying and indeed pulling a "trick" with what they did this morning. It didnt get any better as the attorneys for both sides began snidely insulting each other in front of everyone. This really worries me about the legal system. These sneaky moves are something I would expect of a defense, not a state prosecuting legal team. Didnt get to watch any of it yet. What did the defense say specifically that they were lying about?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #2904 July 11, 2013 And at the very end of the lesser charges will be littering. Not properly disposing of the shell casing. I also find it amusing that I've seen Angela Correy in the courtroom a lot. The one pulling the judges strings?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2905 July 11, 2013 Her and all of her necks and chins have been there the whole trial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #2906 July 11, 2013 devildog ***Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed? Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before. Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #2907 July 11, 2013 GeorgiaDon ******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed? Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before. Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand? Don I don't think DJ works that way, especially since the defense was staying we want an all or nothing judgment on 2nd degree murder.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #2908 July 11, 2013 GeorgiaDon ******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed? Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before. Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand? Don Considering what happened in LA when the cops were acquitted and then the feds charged them again anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter. Obummer and Holder will get their man anyway they can...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeFallFiend 0 #2909 July 11, 2013 devildog ***I really dont know what to say after watching this mornings proceedings. As the defense is claiming the state was VERY obviously lying and indeed pulling a "trick" with what they did this morning. It didnt get any better as the attorneys for both sides began snidely insulting each other in front of everyone. This really worries me about the legal system. These sneaky moves are something I would expect of a defense, not a state prosecuting legal team. Didnt get to watch any of it yet. What did the defense say specifically that they were lying about? Here is a link to a slightly edited version of what happened this morning: http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=90022&sitesection=dash&VID=24941408 Basically West is claiming that in hindsight its obvious now the state had intended to do this the entire time. It's not only unethical but in my opinion guilty of lying by omission since this wasnt presented to the defense when the state decided they were going to pursue it. No one believes that the state decided to pursue this at 7:30AM this morning because of the amount of research and prep that went into obtaining all the relevant case law. It's irrelevant now as the judge says she wont allow it. I didnt see that particular ruling though so I dont know if it was thrown out because she doesnt agree, because of the way it was introduced, or both.Fiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #2910 July 11, 2013 Quote ...especially since the defense was staying we want an all or nothing judgment on 2nd degree murder. And what else would you expect the defense to "stay"? Quote I don't think DJ works that way...I'm sure we'll hear from our resident lawyers and get the real scoop. However I'm quite sure that manslaughter is a lesser included offense under murder. From the Wikipedia article: "In criminal jury trials, the court is permitted (but not required) to instruct jurors that they can find the defendant guilty of the most serious crime charged, or of a lesser included offense of that crime (in English law, this is termed an alternative verdict). In murder cases, however, where a convicted defendant may face capital punishment, the United States Supreme Court has held that the court must instruct the jury that they may find the defendant guilty of a lesser included offense such as voluntary manslaughter.[1] The reasoning for this ruling is that jurors, given the options of convicting a less culpable killer or letting him go free, might opt to convict of a more serious crime than the facts warrant. Therefore, they must have at least one option that falls in between these extremes. In the case in which the jury has the option of convicting a defendant accused of a violation of law where there is a lesser included offense, if the jury acquits the defendant of the more serious offense but is otherwise unable to reach a verdict (i.e., is hung) on the lesser included offense, the defendant may be retried if the prosecutor chooses, but only for the lesser included offense. If the jury finds the defendant not guilty of the lesser included offense, there would be no need to make a determination on the more serious offense, as acquittal of a lesser included offense automatically constitutes acquittal of the more serious offense." Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #2911 July 11, 2013 FreeFallFiend ******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed? Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1. They were prepping for the lesser charge of manslaughter because that's what they were told to expect the entire time and was confirmed again last night. At 730AM this morning the prosecution gave notice they were going to include a lesser charge of 3rd degree murder hinging on child abuse. They then had pages and pages of very detailed case law precedent. The defense was enraged (and rightfully so) because it was obvious that the state had been planning to make this move for quite some time and didnt properly let the defense know. This is a trick because it doesnt allow the defense time to properly defend itself. The bottom line is the state knows they dont stand a chance at convicting GZ for what he was charged and being tried with so they are scrambling like hell now to include lesser charges and ridiculous jury instructions in a hail mary catch all play. Well, I think this proves the whole case is Political...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #2912 July 11, 2013 Quote It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me. When my house was broken into at gunpoint a few years back, they also hit the perp with kidnapping since they used a firearm to force someone to do something against their will (in this case jamming our house sitter in the closet). I don't think it's uncommon to hit them with as much as you can. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #2913 July 11, 2013 FreeFallFiend It's irrelevant now as the judge says she wont allow it. I didnt see that particular ruling though so I dont know if it was thrown out because she doesnt agree, because of the way it was introduced, or both. As I understand it, they are attempting to say a child was killed while a perp was committing a felony. i.e. Zimmerman would have had to be committing some *other* felony, during which a child also happened to get killed. And the judge is saying there is no evidence to support this scenario."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #2914 July 11, 2013 Quote ...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that. And apparently there is a current politically driven thrust to get the CRS bullshit into the discussion, again with no thought about the actual evidence. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeFallFiend 0 #2915 July 11, 2013 The state is making their closing arguments now. It's obvious already that they are pushing for the jury to convict on manslaughter.Fiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2916 July 11, 2013 Good thing closing arguments doesn't mean as much to juries as the attorneys would like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #2917 July 11, 2013 Did the defense make their closing yet?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #2918 July 11, 2013 question are the attorneys limited on the length of their closing arguments??You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linebckr83 3 #2919 July 11, 2013 GeorgiaDon Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand? Don After watching this whole thing, I don't think cleaning up witnesses would do the job. There's an extreme lack of evidence against Zimmerman whether the witnesses were better or not. Taken from the comments section, the prosecution closing statement should have been: "We the prosecution assume that we can convict without providing any actual evidence." Half an hour into the closing argument, it still pure speculation. Possible speculation, but speculation all the same."Are you coming to the party? Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!" Flying Hellfish #828 Dudist #52 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2920 July 11, 2013 About 3 hours each. State will use 2 now, then the defense, then the state get another shot. "I have a dream" was just used in the state's close. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linebckr83 3 #2921 July 11, 2013 devildog Did the defense make their closing yet? That will be tomorrow morning. O'Mara will be giving it. Then the prosecution will give a sort of rebuttal closing argument."Are you coming to the party? Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!" Flying Hellfish #828 Dudist #52 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #2922 July 11, 2013 normiss About 3 hours each. State will use 2 now, then the defense, then the state get another shot. "I have a dream" was just used in the state's close. wtf they are actually trying to use Rachel jeantel's testimony to sway the jury. She came of as a moronYou can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeFallFiend 0 #2923 July 11, 2013 DanG Quote ...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that. And apparently there is a current politically driven thrust to get the CRS bullshit into the discussion, again with no thought about the actual evidence. Evidence such as official documents from the Justice Department? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359517/Documents-Little-known-Justice-Department-unit-provided-support-protest-deployment-Florida-initial-Trayvon-Martin-unrest.htmlFiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #2924 July 11, 2013 ianmdrennan Quote It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me. When my house was broken into at gunpoint a few years back, they also hit the perp with kidnapping since they used a firearm to force someone to do something against their will (in this case jamming our house sitter in the closet). I don't think it's uncommon to hit them with as much as you can. Ian Yes, but I doubt they waited until the end of the trial to throw in that charge. Usually you hit them with everything you have in order to plea some of it away. Here, like in LA, even if Z is acquitted (as I think he should be) the feds are likely to jump in and charge him with something else...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #2925 July 11, 2013 They did clearly wait until the last minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites