Bigger picture: TM vs GZ

[wmw999 2,447]

I guess my real problem with this, all potentially institutionalized racism, anti-gun-ism, liberal press-montering, etc. aside, is that it seems that a private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow being legally OK.

I doubt that TM just saw GZ walking down the street and decided to follow him and attack him; at least not based on the phone conversations that both sides acknowledge were happening. What happened after that is, of course, under investigation.

But dang. I don't really think I'm happier that a private citizen can challenge and shoot me, than I would be that a government official can do it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

Except that they can't just "challenge and shoot you".

I think you're being influenced by "the narrative" just a bit.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wmw999 2,447]

Had GZ not followed TM, would anything have happened?

I'm not saying that TM didn't respond. But did he just go after GZ without provocation, requiring him to defend himself? Doesn't sound like that, either. The unredacted police call doesn't sound like that to me, at least.

It's become a huge cause celebre, which will, of course, obscure all but the talking points in the long run.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[devildog 0]

The full police call to me sounds just like that. I wish I could find the site again, but someone broke it down well with a timeline and the neighborhood map showing how TM evading GZ and then coming up from behind and to the left of GZ as he walked back from a side entrance lines up exactly with what GZ said happened, and the call as well.

Anywho, your first question can be turned around as well. "Had TM not decided to jump GZ, would anything have happened?"

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[mnealtx 0]

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Had GZ not followed TM, would anything have happened?

I'm not saying that TM didn't respond. But did he just go after GZ without provocation, requiring him to defend himself? Doesn't sound like that, either. The unredacted police call doesn't sound like that to me, at least.

Had TM not returned to the area after successfully eluding GZ, would anything have happened?

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It's become a huge cause celebre, which will, of course, obscure all but the talking points in the long run.

Wendy P.

You say that like it *hasn't* obscured anything but the talking points from the start.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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I guess my real problem with this, all potentially institutionalized racism, anti-gun-ism, liberal press-montering, etc. aside, is that it seems that a private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow being legally OK.

> Anywho, your first question can be turned around as well. "Had TM not decided to jump GZ, would anything have happened?"

Because we are unable to identify which question is the accurate one, there's not going to be a bigger picture here.

[popsjumper 2]

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it seems that a private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow being legally OK.

And that's exactly correct in Florida and other states having similar "Right to Defend" laws.

The final legal outcome depends on the actions of the dead private citizen before he got himself dead.

I don't think it takes a judge or jury to decide that in all cases.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airdvr 210]

Doesn't much matter anyways. Does the State of FL have enough balls to free GZ in light of the riots that will follow?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[skypuppy 1]

GZ was also in his own neighborhood. TM was not in his own neighborhood. Sounds like GZ may indeed have had reasons to be concerned that there had indeed been crimes occurring in the neighborhood recently, and sounds to me like it might be a good idea for people in the area to keep an eye out for unusual people/situations.

Also sounds like TM did have a bit of a problem with violence, and some other problems with the legal system, which perhaps his age had so far allowed him to get away with, which also may have caused him to have the attitude he would be able to get away with more.

We'll find out, perhaps, if they unseal the records that show why TM received a 10-day suspension from school. I don't think that you normally get a 10-day suspension for a minor offence, or a first or second offence. I believe it would have to be something physical or a chain of events leading up to such a suspension. And the tweets on the now-deleted account seem to show that his friends believe the same thing.

I'm certainly hoping that the courts will unseal the records about the suspension, but it wouldn't surprise me if they decide not to saying it's not him on trial, and that he's a minor? Although they would certainly speak to his attitude, and his character.

Depends how bad they want to railroad GZ, and I think they want to railroad him bad.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[GeorgiaDon 362]

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it seems that a private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow being legally OK.

And that's exactly correct in Florida and other states having similar "Right to Defend" laws.

The final legal outcome depends on the actions of the dead private citizen before he got himself dead.

I don't think it takes a judge or jury to decide that in all cases.

If there are no witnesses, all the shooter has to do is make up a good story and he's home free. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning, but the phrase "...he got himself dead" suggests that you believe that in such situations the dead guy must have done something deserving of being killed in every case. Can you really not imagine any possible chain of events where the shooter initiated the attack, or overreacted to some completely innocent action?

Police sometimes make mistakes and shoot the wrong person, and they are highly trained. In Georgia, no training, testing, or demonstration of any level of proficiency with firearms is needed to obtain a concealed carry permit. Why would anyone assume that highly trained police may make mistakes, but completely untrained private citizens will react correctly in every instance?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[normiss 801]

Sadly the bigger picture is how this community (or more?) is becoming sooooo racially divided over this.

How did that happen? I still do not understand how this became a racial issue. It angers me to see sides intentionally playing it that way. The attorney for Mr. Martin's family makes me cringe. I've not seen nor heard a legal argument or comment from him at all. Just emotional grandstanding.

City commission meeting

some video of the meeting

I need to find some video of the public citizen comments that were heard before the vote too...

I'm saddened to see this here. I have never had the impression that this community has any racial conflict or tension of any kind. Towards any race. It's a VERY diverse community. I thought we were all getting along well and living happily and friendly with everyone.




On your point of self defense issues...
At what point should you be able to defend your own life?
What dollar value are you willing to put on the legal defense of doing so?
Is your life not worth defending?
It appears to me that Mr. Zimmerman felt his was.

I support the legal ability to defend my own life.
I can only hope I never have to, nor defend said action should that occur.

[mnealtx 0]

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Can you really not imagine any possible chain of events where the shooter initiated the attack, or overreacted to some completely innocent action?

Innocent actions such as getting your head pounded into the pavement, or did you have something else in mind?

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Police sometimes make mistakes and shoot the wrong person, and they are highly trained. In Georgia, no training, testing, or demonstration of any level of proficiency with firearms is needed to obtain a concealed carry permit. Why would anyone assume that highly trained police may make mistakes, but completely untrained private citizens will react correctly in every instance?

There is quite a LARGE gulf between being a police officer rolling up on a situation in progress with little/no idea who is the 'good guy' and who is the 'bad guy', and being a civilian that is fighting off an attacker. Why do you equate the two?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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In Georgia, no training, testing, or demonstration of any level of proficiency with firearms is needed to obtain a concealed carry permit. Why would anyone assume that highly trained police may make mistakes, but completely untrained private citizens will react correctly in every instance?

the case history is rather favorable...if there were any significant numbers of CCWs gone bad, the Brady Bunch would be publicly screaming for joy. Instead they have to stick to their oldies like "blood in the streets" and the "wild west."

BTW, police are not "highly trained" in this subject unless they choose to do it themselves. Some of the people here spend far more time on the matter than the average police officer.

[billvon 2,991]

>I guess my real problem with this, all potentially institutionalized racism,
>anti-gun-ism, liberal press-montering, etc. aside, is that it seems that a
>private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering
>anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow
>being legally OK.

Yeah, that seems to me to be the bigger issue here. I think that an ideal outcome might be for Zimmerman to be found not guilty through application of the "stand your ground" law. Then perhaps the anger (and activism) currently focused on Zimmerman would be instead focused on that law.

[grimmie 186]

I think most people have already taken sides before the real facts have been presented in court.
Was Zimmerman acting in defense of his offense? Was Martin afraid for his life and go on the offensive for his defense?
This will go to court three times. Criminal, civil and then a "Stand your ground" legal case.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I guess my real problem with this, all potentially institutionalized racism, anti-gun-ism, liberal press-montering, etc. aside, is that it seems that a private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow being legally OK.

Only if you define "assault and battery" as not bothering anyone which is what the physical evidence suggests.

[wlsc 0]

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>I guess my real problem with this, all potentially institutionalized racism,
>anti-gun-ism, liberal press-montering, etc. aside, is that it seems that a
>private citizen can be walking home from the store without bothering
>anyone, and end up dead by another private citizen, with it somehow
>being legally OK.

Yeah, that seems to me to be the bigger issue here. I think that an ideal outcome might be for Zimmerman to be found not guilty through application of the "stand your ground" law. Then perhaps the anger (and activism) currently focused on Zimmerman would be instead focused on that law.

The biggest issue is the number of black people you have in prison as a result of the racist nature of your society. Study after study after study has confirmed this.

[popsjumper 2]

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If there are no witnesses, all the shooter has to do is make up a good story and he's home free.

Nothing new there.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning, but the phrase "...he got himself dead" suggests that you believe that in such situations the dead guy must have done something...

Change "must" to "may" and you got it.

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...deserving of being killed in every case.

Nah. I have a hard time thinking that anyone "deserves" to be killed. Anti death penalty and all that.

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Can you really not imagine any possible chain of events where the shooter initiated the attack, or overreacted to some completely innocent action?

Of course I can. It happens all the time. Why would you twist in that direction?

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Why would anyone assume that highly trained police may make mistakes, but completely untrained private citizens will react correctly in every instance?

I dunno. It doesn't sound like reasonable thinking to me.

Do you think that the shooter in all cases should be arrested and taken to trial?

If yes, I strongly disagree.

If no, we agree and I would ask,
-What is it, in your mind, about this case that justifies it?

On the other hand, it's not abnormal for police to let a suspect go at first and then come back and arrest them later. Usually, I would venture to guess, it is because they developed some sort of physical evidence pointing to the shooter's culpability.

I just don't see that in this case as yet..

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DanG 1]

I think it's really cute that Wendy thought this thread would be anything but a regurgitation of talking points, wild speculation, ridiculous strawmen, and partisan dick dancing.

- Dan G

[wmw999 2,447]

Since it seems to have been clear to TM that GZ was suspicious of him/following him/whatever, it's hard to say that whatever he did was entirely without provocation.

I know that if I'm followed I get paranoid. Since I'm 5'4" and 57, that translates into walking into the nearest public place with people for protection. If I were someone else, it might mean deciding to take charge of my own life, and confronting whoever I thought was attacking me.

And, yeah, Dang, it is cute. But then I'm cute, too

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[devildog 0]

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Police sometimes make mistakes and shoot the wrong person, and they are highly trained. In Georgia, no training, testing, or demonstration of any level of proficiency with firearms is needed to obtain a concealed carry permit. Why would anyone assume that highly trained police may make mistakes, but completely untrained private citizens will react correctly in every instance?

Don

I don't have the exact numbers off hand, but it's something like police are twice as likely to draw their gun as a private citizen with a CCW, and police are seven times more likely to shoot a person in error than someone with a CCW. I'll see if I can find the link on another board I saw it on. It was quite the interesting read.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[Rick 67]

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Since it seems to have been clear to TM that GZ was suspicious of him/following him/whatever, it's hard to say that whatever he did was entirely without provocation.

I know that if I'm followed I get paranoid. Since I'm 5'4" and 57, that translates into walking into the nearest public place with people for protection. If I were someone else, it might mean deciding to take charge of my own life, and confronting whoever I thought was attacking me.

And, yeah, Dang, it is cute. But then I'm cute, too

Wendy P.

Following is not attacking. Confronting seems more aggressive than following IMO.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[normiss 801]

Wandering around between apartment building late at night in the rain IS suspicious.
Add a hoodie - more so.
We are seeing an increase in crimes occurring with the perpetrators wearing hoodies. A local Hispanic lady running a food truck was murdered by two black or hispanic men 2 days ago - police descrip "young black men wearing hoodies, seen running from the truck after the gunshot"

Can someone explain to me HOW Mr. Martin was NOT suspicious???? I don't care if his skin is glow in the dark titty pink. If I were to see an unknown person, around my neighbors houses, late at night, in the rain, wearing a hoodie.....I'm calling it in and following the person.

I hope my neighbors would do the same.

[billvon 2,991]

>Wandering around between apartment building late at night in the rain IS
>suspicious. Add a hoodie - more so.

Agreed. And someone chasing neighborhood kids around with a gun is even more so. And we now have a law that makes it more OK for them to kill each other.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Who was chasing neighborhood kids around with a gun?