Bigger picture: TM vs GZ

[Rick 67]

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>Wandering around between apartment building late at night in the rain IS
>suspicious. Add a hoodie - more so.

Agreed. And someone chasing neighborhood kids around with a gun is even more so. And we now have a law that makes it more OK for them to kill each other.

Wow I have lived in Florida for a long time and I never heard of this law that makes it OK to kill each other.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[wmw999 2,452]

He's a young man wandering around in what I'd consider to be early evening (a little after 7). Nope, I wouldn't be suspicious if I were to see him walking down my street at that hour. Really. 11PM maybe.

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"This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something." He further stated that the person he was observing had his hand in his waistband, was holding something in his other hand, and was walking around slowly in the rain looking at houses

I walk regularly; used to be most often about 5:30AM. Yeah, I look at houses too. Of course, I'm a white female.

If it's raining, the hoodie might in fact go up. If I don't think I'm doing anything suspicious, why should I worry?

Yeah, the part he didn't know was that there had been a series of breakins in the neighborhood, and that the guy watching from his truck was neighborhood watch. GZ had reason to be worried from his point of view.

But we still have the end result of the initial situation being a kid walking home from 7-11 with some skittles, and ending up dead. AND the police say nothing worth indicting happened when it first happened. If I were his parent, I'd be raising cain.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,590]

One more time, boys and girls;
The eyewitness who called 911 and spoke to the local TV reporter next morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zK3ZdDEfjzg&t=10s

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 803]

Great here with go with factual evidence again.
When will you realize this is about emotion and race, not a legal defense of one's own life??????

[ryoder 1,590]

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Great here with go with factual evidence again.
When will you realize this is about emotion and race, not a legal defense of one's own life??????

Sorry, I'm still so old-fashioned..

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wmw999 2,452]

I've heard that before. Zimmerman sounds like it ended up defending his life. I have no issue with that.

It's how he ended up in a situation where he was defending his life from someone who was just going the store, and apparently didn't bother anyone until after Zimmerman was suspicious enough to call the police and leave his truck.

Yeah, I know -- Martin was WWB; that's suspicious in and of itself . To me "the bigger picture" isn't how it ended, it's how it started.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 803]

Seems to me it started innocently enough.

Stranger in neighborhood.
Neighborhood watch person spots suspicious person walking around between homes.
Call 911.
Get jumped and attacked by suspicious person.
Defend life.
Spend rest of life defending action of defending your life.

Seriously. That's what the police and the State Attorney office found. Hence the initial lack of charges. As it should have been.

Suddenly everyone selling air time, news space, elections issues, political influence to be gained, public threats with no legal action taken....suddenly it's all about some innocent faced kid.
Maybe the kid should have been a little smarter about a confrontation.

But that's the way I see it. Still don't understand how this has become such a racial issue. Fucking media again.

[Bolas 5]

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I've heard that before. Zimmerman sounds like it ended up defending his life. I have no issue with that.

It's how he ended up in a situation where he was defending his life from someone who was just going the store, and apparently didn't bother anyone until after Zimmerman was suspicious enough to call the police and leave his truck.

Yeah, I know -- Martin was WWB; that's suspicious in and of itself . To me "the bigger picture" isn't how it ended, it's how it started.

Wendy P.

So if someone treats someone else as suspicious and questions them the person being questioned has the right to beat them up and the other person at that point can't defend themselves?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,998]

>So if someone treats someone else as suspicious and questions them the
>person being questioned has the right to beat them up

If they reasonably feel they are at risk of death or serious bodily harm - yes. Just as the other person has the right to shoot them.

[wmw999 2,452]

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So if someone treats someone else as suspicious and questions them the person being questioned has the right to beat them up and the other person at that point can't defend themselves?

Not that, either. But I guess that being a white female, I find that suspicion never comes my way, and I'd find it offensive to be suspected.

Pity that someone's suspicion ended up with them outside the truck that provided protection, so that they were then subject to being beaten down, and had to defend themself. Personally, I'd call that stupid I-got-a-gun-based risk-taking.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,590]

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Pity that someone's suspicion ended up with them outside the truck that provided protection, so that they were then subject to being beaten down, and had to defend themself. Personally, I'd call that stupid I-got-a-gun-based risk-taking.

Wendy P.

Zimmerman probably suspected Martin of being a burglar, not a violent criminal. There had been burglaries in the neighborhood.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 803]

Zimmerman was apparently headed back to his truck when attacked.
Leaving your vehicle isn't illegal.
Most of us do so a few times per day.

[wmw999 2,452]

***Why? Probably because he was male, black, and wore a hoodie.

Sucks to be black, doesn't it. Makes walking down the street a suspicious activity.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 803]

If someone is walking around in between multiple houses and is not recognized as a local resident, how is that NOT suspicious???

I tend to not let such suspicious people out my sight when I spot one.

[ryoder 1,590]

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***Why? Probably because he was male, black, and wore a hoodie.

Sucks to be black, doesn't it. Makes walking down the street a suspicious activity.

Wendy P.

Please. You really think a white/hispanic/asian wandering around at night in the rain would not have attracted the suspicion of a neighborhood watchman???

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Rick 67]

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So if someone treats someone else as suspicious and questions them the person being questioned has the right to beat them up and the other person at that point can't defend themselves?

Not that, either. But I guess that being a white female, I find that suspicion never comes my way, and I'd find it offensive to be suspected.



Wendy P.

You have every right to be offended. you do not have the right to attack the person you find offensive.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Rick 67]

I believe on the 911 call GZ says he sees a suspicious person and in reply to the operators question says he is not sure of the persons race.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[GeorgiaDon 362]

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One more time, boys and girls;
The eyewitness who called 911 and spoke to the local TV reporter next morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zK3ZdDEfjzg&t=10s

Every eyewitness I have heard of in this case reports hearing/seeing the altercation when it was already in progress. No-one that I know of (apart from Zimmerman, who might be a little biased on the matter) has reported witnessing the start of the fight. If there is a credible witness who actually saw M attack Z, I'd like to know about it. All the eyewitnesses establish is that Z was getting the worse end of the fight.

I don't know who started the fight, though it seems clear who initiated the chain of events that lead to M's death. I do not know which of them is legally responsible for what happened. I do hope the courts will be able to sort it out.

Several of you seem to have decided that Z was in the right to shoot, simply because he was losing the fight (unless you have specific knowledge of who started the fight). Just for the sake of the "bigger picture", am I correct to believe that in your opinion a person who starts a confrontation is legally justified in resorting to deadly force if the fight goes against them, and at some point they start to feel their life is in danger? What that leads to is a situation where any belligerent asshole, knowing that they are carrying, can accost someone confident in the knowledge that they have an ace in the hole.

The bigger picture is that if I find myself in a situation where I am walking somewhere I have a right to be, minding my own business, and some ass starts interrogating me, or even tries to detain me, I had better meekly acquiesce. Otherwise I could find myself dead, without any legal repercussions for the shooter. So where are my rights? Don't I have a right to go for a walk and, should it start to rain, pull up my hoodie to keep my head dry? Since when does that give anyone free rein to interrogate, detain, or even shoot me?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wmw999 2,452]

Well, in the media-edited cut I believe he says he thinks he's black. And the media editing does matter .

Why not stay in his truck and let the police deal with it, as they police suggested?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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I'd find it offensive to be suspected.

You hit the nail on the head. People take offense to being suspected versus just taking actions to eliminate themselves as a suspect either proactively or reactively.

It's sort of like when police show up in riot gear and people start rioting "just to show them." All they're doing is showing the police they were right.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wlsc 0]

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I'd find it offensive to be suspected.

You hit the nail on the head. People take offense to being suspected versus just taking actions to eliminate themselves as a suspect either proactively or reactively.

If you're Black don't walk the streets. Or you will be eliminated.

[normiss 803]

Cool.
We'll start wandering around your house at night.
Walking in circles in the rain.

If you stop me, I'll simply bash your head in the concrete.

Once you're dead, I've instantly become the typical thug criminal. Nothing to hype and sell from that story. It happens everyday.

Care to see some of the recent crimes in Central Florida?

[wmw999 2,452]

So GM's unwarranted suspicion becomes TM's death. Yeah, TM reacted poorly, but it wasn't unprovoked.

It's OK for me to provoke you, and then shoot you if you react strongly enough. And I don't even have to try to get to somewhere safe, or be on my own property, or anything else like that.

Fucking vigilantes who want every single person to be able to take the law into their own hands. Think of the fun we would have had if TM had been 18, and legally carrying concealed. Of course, he'd still be suspicious for walking to the store

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,590]

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Well, in the media-edited cut I believe he says he thinks he's black.

The dispatcher asked what race the guy was and Zimmerman answered the question:http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-grio/46771333/#46771333

(Sorry to drag facts in again, Normiss)

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wlsc 0]

...A plurality of Florida voters agree with the decision to charge George Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the Trayvon Martin shooting, a new poll from Public Policy Polling finds. 49% of voters agree with the decision to charge Zimmerman, 25% disagree and 26% are’t sure. Voters aren’t sure whether he is guilty, though – 31% believe he’s guilty, 26% think he’s not guilty and 43% aren’t sure. Most voters don’t believe the shooting was motivated by racism – 45% say it wasn’t, 32% say it was and 23% aren’t sure. 46% of voters say Zimmerman can receive a fair trial, 37% believe he will not and 17% aren’t sure. Despite the controversy over the shooting, more Florida voters than not still support the “Stand Your Ground” law that allows citizens to use lethal force in the face of a perceived violent threat without having to retreat first. 42% support the law, 32% oppose it and 26% aren’t sure...