Fracking for oil

[popsjumper 2]

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Since you missed it the first time, GO AND READ IT AND EDUCATE YOURSELF. Even in "still" air the difference in mass is way too small to give any significant partition in the Earth's gravitational field.

If you want the short answer, ENTROPY beats gravity in gas mixtures unless the density differences are large, which they are not for oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, H2S, argon...

Now we are getting somewhere..."still" air vs no wind.
You DO understand the difference. Good. Try not to confuse the two, 'mkay?

Lame attempt to cover your ignorance of molecular mechanics.

Oh? We ALL understand molecular mechanics? Holy shit! I didn't know that! You're a well of information. Mostly off the mark but a bucketful nonetheless. Thank God some of us live a real life. Thanks for another display of your normal reading inadequacies, though and your propensity for twisting a-la-lawyer style. It's entertaining at least.

Lame attempt to cover your ignorance of no-wind conditions. Shoo fly.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

And that stems from the mistrust of them doing the right thing on their own....so, regulations and more.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,997]

>And that stems from the mistrust of them doing the right thing on their
>own . . .

Agreed. Which in turn comes from incidents like the one that Airgump described.

[popsjumper 2]

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...Your argument is stupid.

Geez...you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or is this a typical day in your life?

Your reading still needs work, my man. Do you wear glasses?
He said, "Using the methodolgy of some here...."

Got anything constructive to say today about fracking for oil?
If yes, let's hear it.
If no, take my wife...please.
To Bolivia would be nice.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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one thing is for sure in this world, right here, right now.........

without pic1 and pic2 there is no pic three for you greenies to jump from but cliffs and gliders

I like the choice of colors on the rig.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 2,027]

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...Your argument is stupid.

Geez...you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or is this a typical day in your life?

.

Just my usual intolerance of stupidity and ignorance.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,997]

Both of you - cut it out. Your one warning.

[Airgump 1]

yeah bill, it's mucked up beyond belief.

my thoughts are if you're sticking it to one, the whole big picture should be looked at before singling one out over the other. should we tack on the cost of killing several migratory birds to an airline after the pilot just saved his crew and passengers from death dealing with two engines out and nowhere to land? the birds weren't dieing in that spot before the oil location or the turbine was installed and they won't be dieing at that spot when the location is put back to green fields or when the turbine falls to the ground. so if one is being put to the sword, the same fate should fall on the other.

i'm watching Japan right now with their last nuclear reactor shut down and how good their economy fares when the rolling blackouts start. been out to perris in days gone by when they couldn't run their tunnel because of the rolling blackouts. is it fair that ben loses money because the grid he's hooked to can't provide the product he's trying to buy? i hope they can figure it out and maybe we can learn by example.

that god-awfull genie hides every where. all it takes is the removal of the cap and there she is and all the problems that come along.

i have worked in many producing fields in the patch. when i worked up in NY and northern PA both states had a very aggressive EPA program. there were many unannounced visits by their people to inspect the operation.

At first that field up there was just air drilling to drill a well, the local "talent" had a hard time understanding drilling mudded-up like we have out in OK all of our lives. by the time i got up that way, most wells in OK were using a closed system to contain all of their fluids. in other-wards, any place that could be "wetted" by drilling fluids had massive plastic sheeting to protect against fluid loss into the surface soil. the extra cost makes up for cleanup after the rig has reached total depth, cause all the cuttings and such was contained in steel pits backed up by plastic lined areas.

i worked as a mud-logger up there basically determining what type of formation we were drilling in and whatever else the company geologist needed from me. we air drilled through the fresh water zones and marked their location on our drilling logs for the EPA folks as per their directive. they have low pressure gas up there. so the locals aren't as keen as us that came from high pressure/high volume fields. either will kill ya just as dead.

some companies i worked for down in LA would always case their kick off point where they go from vertical to horizontal. it cost them extra money but they saw a savings in dollars cause they never got stuck in the hole trying pull their pipe out past the dog-leg. the folks up in the NE didn't learn so quick and spent a lot of time stuck in the hole. stupid hurts and they paid their price. same with mud spills and not watching their pit levels. the EPA nailed their arse with fines and rightfully so for anything that hit the ground. and a rig north of one i worked on burned to the ground cause they lost all of their mud and had a blowout. yes, low pressure/high volume kills and burns just the same.

the oil company rep on a location is called the "company man." when i broke out in the oil field in the late 70's i was working floors on a rig and those guys were GOD on the rig. fast forward to today and all they are is the mouth for the faceless oil company. they are rarely consulted by the home office engineers who have never set foot on a drilling rig, much less worked on one. this sad thing is happening not just in the oil fields, but in all walks of life. upper management is driving the bus and be damned with everyone else......it's me, me, me and my bonus, bonus, bonus.

when i work in wireless it's the same thing, how much can we screw our contractors out of to make more money and how can we get over on the cities without paying too much on building permits and save buckets of money without going to jail.

let's work smarter not harder

[billvon 2,997]

>hould we tack on the cost of killing several migratory birds to an airline
>after the pilot just saved his crew and passengers from death dealing with
>two engines out and nowhere to land?

If they flew into his engines during a normal departure? No. If he was buzzing the lake for fun? Perhaps. (Recent lawsuit went after a pilot who did just this.)

>i'm watching Japan right now with their last nuclear reactor shut down and
>how good their economy fares when the rolling blackouts start.

The reason those plants are offline is because they failed in the most spectacular way possible. No government agency or regulation shut down the Fukushima Daiichi and Fukushima Dai-ni plants; it was their failure (followed in some cases by explosions and fires) that did that. Had Japan relied more on wind, they would have lost less of their power infrastructure after the tsunami.

(That's not to say that nuclear power is inherently bad - it's not - but that's an example of one case where it _was_ a big liability for a country.)

>been out to perris in days gone by when they couldn't run their tunnel
>because of the rolling blackouts.

They don't have rolling blackouts; only the tunnel motors get shut down. They are on the E-BIP rate schedule last time I checked. This gives them very cheap power with the provisio that PG+E can shut then down during times of high demand, which during the summer is around noon to 7pm on weekdays. Ben could have chosen a more conventional rate schedule but he would have paid far more for power.

Is that worth it to him? Apparently it isn't. His call.

I've been talking to Mary to figure out how to integrate solar into their system. The demands are huge (they take about 600kW at full power) but tying even a smaller solar array into the grid may make them eligible for a different rate schedule.

>when i work in wireless it's the same thing, how much can we screw our
>contractors out of to make more money and how can we get over on
>the cities without paying too much on building permits and save
>buckets of money without going to jail.

Yep, that's capitalism for you. He who makes the most money while spending the least "wins." Which is why regulation is often needed in the first place, to counteract the worst behaviors driven by capitalism.

[rehmwa 2]

can we get back to the statement "magnitude more birds are killed flying into trees"?

I'd like to see proof of that statement

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Airgump 1]

yes, but regulation for the sake of regulation is wrong too. an un-biased approach is best. just because you have rank on someone doesn't give card blanch to "fix" what isn't broken or deviate from the program as a whole.

[Airgump 1]

seen a few of the stupid shits fly into patio door and become cat fodder, those evil sliding glass doors, when are we going to save those poor cats from having to eat all those stupid birds committing suicide on maw and pops sliding glass door.

[Airgump 1]

“First they came for Coal and I did not speak out because I did not know my community was electrically powered by evil coal.

Then they came for Oil and Gas and I did not speak out because I was too stupid to realize those evil coal plants were replaced by the now evil natural gas plants.

Then they came for nuclear energy and I did not speak out because I was told that sun and wind with carry the day.

Poor me, now days I can’t afford to brew a single cup of tea.”

[billvon 2,997]

>can we get back to the statement "magnitude more birds are killed flying
>into trees"? I'd like to see proof of that statement

Sure. I have no firm numbers for birds killed flying into trees (I don't think anyone has ever studied that) but here are the numbers I base that on:

First, here's a breakdown of anthropogenic sources of bird deaths from HowStuffWorks:

==============
Feral and domestic cats -- 100-200 million
Power lines 130 million -- 174 million
Windows (residential and commercial) 100 million -- 1 billion
Pesticides -- 70 million
Automobiles 60 million -- 80 million
Lighted communication towers 40 million -- 50 million
Wind turbines 10,000 -- 40,000
==============

So clearly a lot more birds die from hitting power lines and towers than wind turbines.

Next, bird vs tree deaths that we know about:

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Arkansas birds died of trauma
Necropsies suggest loud noise caused panicked flock to fly into objects
By Rachel Ehrenberg
Web edition : Monday, January 3rd, 2011

The blackbirds falling in the dead of night over Beebe, Ark., suffered more than broken wings. Preliminary postmortem results on 18 of the thousands of blackbirds and starlings that fell from the sky New Year’s Eve point to blunt force trauma as the cause of death. . . .

The timing and concentrated, localized nature of the event suggests that a flock got totally freaked out and started flying madly into things like trees, buildings and even each other.
==============

That one incident resulted in about 5000 bird deaths. I did not see any breakdown of how many died hitting trees vs. buildings, but since all the pictures of the birds were near trees (and few were near buildings) let's say that 2500 died on that one day in one town in Arkansas from running into trees. Compare that to as many as 40,000 bird deaths all year, across the US, from wind turbines. If that sort of bird kill happens in even 20 towns on that one day (new year's eve) from the noise, then they far outweigh bird deaths from wind turbines every year. And if it happens across the country in places we don't see (forests) then it's several orders of magnitude higher.

That of course does not account for "normal" bird deaths - i.e. no noise or any other cause, just birds who fly into trees.

I also found a few papers on the dangers that lights pose to birds. One paper said that lights tend to lure flying birds towards lit structures where they hit trees, guy wires or the structure itself. It said deaths numbered in the millions but did not break down trees vs. structure. If it's one third each that's an order of magnitude more deaths.

[billvon 2,997]

>First they came for Coal . . .
>Then they came for Oil and Gas . . .
>Then they came for nuclear energy . . .

Then they came for wind power because it was killing all the birds . . .
Then they came for solar because no one could tax the fuel . . .
Then they came for hydro because no one liked the dams . . .

[Airgump 1]

bill, yours doesn't rhyme.

get with the program

[Airgump 1]

plus who's paying the road taxes on those electric cars? don't want them getting away without paying their fair share on road taxes, those on ramps cost some serious bucks and WE ALL NEED TO PAY OUR FAIR SHARE OF ROAD TAXES don't we, i buy gas for my generator or lawn mower and still charged road tax on it though these items are not involved in the transportation system.

[StreetScooby 5]

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guess all of you professors respond with cartoons instead of intelligent conversation. all of you tree huggers need to buy obummer's electric cars, move into a cave, and leave the rest of us alone. your reply to my post reminds me a lot of bill von.

+1, and LOL...

I worked with Exxon Research for a while. Every project had the following priorities: safety, environment, ROI; in that order, and no compromises. I just roll my eyes when people bad mouth Exxon. They simply do not know what they are talking about. The company is run and populated by extraordinarily smart, dedicated and disciplined people.

I'm still waiting for an eco-author to write "How to Live in Trees for Dummies". I'm going to buy it, and read it.

We are all engines of karma

[Airgump 1]

so is conoco/phillips and devon. these folks support their communities.

i got fucked up big time in an oil field accident many years ago and my family and myself was their first priority. the kids had food on the plate, and was taken care of without threats of court battles and such. if i was 25 years younger, i'd still be working floors or derricks today.

[Airgump 1]

kallend/billvon, where have you gone?

[masterblaster72 0]

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I just roll my eyes when people bad mouth Exxon.

Oh do ya. Here's one from Airgump:

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the hands that work on the rigs are hair follicle tested for drugs and alcohol.

Exxon wasn't doing that in 1989.

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They simply do not know what they are talking about. The company is run and populated by extraordinarily smart, dedicated and disciplined people.

I'll never forget Exxon Valdez, and I hope the generation after us doesn't either. THAT's what it took to get Exxon to the safety levels they're at now. Not a "commitment to safety" or "disciplined, smart", blah blah.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Exxon wasn't doing that in 1989.

No, they were using regular piss tests then.

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I'll never forget Exxon Valdez, and I hope the generation after us doesn't either. THAT's what it took to get Exxon to the safety levels they're at now. Not a "commitment to safety" or "disciplined, smart", blah blah.

You're wrong. Also, never forget that Exxon cleaned up the spill. Wasn't a perfect clean up, but it's more than any other company has ever done before or since.

We are all engines of karma

[masterblaster72 0]

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get the politics out. get some really smart oilmen and women and other folks and let's sit down and figure this out among our selves.

Well then, have you given thought to the notion that not every oilman out there is as responsible and ethical as you?

Saying "let's get the really smart oilmen...and figure this out" isn't much different than

a. the communists' flawed belief in the best of human nature, or

b. the liberal elitists saying they know what's better for everybody.

That, sir, is why regulations are necessary.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Airgump 1]

and no democrat has their constituents in their best interest either. the blue dogs are an endangered species. funny how evil harry knew what land to trade for when homeland security decided to divert traffic off "hoover dam."

"certain" other people beat their chests and proclaim they are rich after being raised up by the"village" and that others should open their wallets, but they themselves pay the lowest tax rate. advice either side, walk the walk.

my position is perfectly clear, if you deviate from the drilling prognosis and go off the reservation alone without the appropriate deviations, hang 'em high.

when i was an artillery officer, we bet our bars on every shot the gun line sent down range. if someone died (in training by our negligence of rounds impacting where they shouldn't) or property was destroyed (same disclaimer), we looked at a nice long stay in KS making little rocks out of big rocks. same, same if i had bars on my collar and got a BJ from someone in my chain of command.

[masterblaster72 0]

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Also, never forget that Exxon cleaned up the spill.

Your profession is showing.

Just like British Petroleum professes to have cleaned up, eh. I don't buy their propoganda. Perhaps other peoples' biases incline them to do so.

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Wasn't a perfect clean up, but it's more than any other company has ever done before or since.

Yup -- and they did it for the same reasons as BP. Another energy giant getting big fat and lazy, cutting corners and assuming all is well in this part of the world and that one to maximize its profits that much more...and then look what happens. Now they're "performing heroics" cleaning up a mess that could have easily been prevented in the first place.

How many more spills and cleanups shouldn't we forget?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.